The Design Imposter

#12: Politics + Business

Keep your opinions to yourself! The role of politics in business.
Join Jessica Valis & Monique Jenkins in this thought-provoking episode as we dive deep into the world of posting political views on your business social media accounts. Social media has become a powerful platform for self-expression and political discourse. But is it a double-edged sword? We explore the impact of sharing your political beliefs online, like the potential pitfalls like heated debates and alienating friends and followers. We’ll discuss valuable insights into effective communication, navigating online echo chambers, and maintaining respectful online interactions. Whether you're a seasoned social media user or just dipping your toes into the political discourse online, this episode offers essential guidance on how to engage thoughtfully in today's digital political landscape.
 
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Transcription:
Jessica Valis Welcome to another episode of Design Imposter. Today we're discussing one of those touchy subjects that should be avoided at family dinners and in business. Politics. We're approaching election season and regardless of whether you vote red or blue, everyone's got an opinion about the economy, government spending, immigration, education, social reforms, the Supreme Court, the list goes on and on. The question is, where do you draw the line and how has politics informed your decisions when it comes to running your business?
Monique Jenkins: Before we dive in, Jessica and I want to share some exciting news about our design agencies.
Jessica Valis: We've said in the past that it took us over a year to finally launch our podcast and now we're taking it one step further. We're launching a joint design agency to offer our clients the complete package.
Monique Jenkins: Yes. So we made this decision. We actually talked about it like a year ago when we initially started talking about the podcast. And at the time, I will say I was like, nah. But not because I didn't want to, but because you're so much more on the ball than I am. I was like, I'm going to fail her and I'll have to be doing that. I can't be ruining friendships out here. So I think I was a little bit hesitant because I'm like, I like, I know that you're going to hold me accountable. And at the time, you know, accountability didn't want that. So we are finally going to be launching this, this dual business and I'm super excited about it. I think that we both have incredible strengths in our respective areas. UX's minds, design is Jessica's and we're both effective at that. I'm also really good at sales apparently. Oh yeah. Jessica's so bad.
Jessica Valis: She's the closer.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I'm like, give us the money.
Monique Jenkins: Um, yeah, I don't like those numbers. Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm apparently really good at talking to people again. Kudos to Brian on that one. Cause he made that happen. Um, but yeah, uh, we, we wanted to let you guys know that we're going to be joining our businesses and we're super excited and we're going to walk you guys through our journey with us about, you know, how to start a business and all the things in between.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, we figured out, in addition to the accountability, it's just easier to join our efforts and divide and conquer because we work with each other all the time anyway. So it might just be best to just be under one umbrella. And we decided we're still gonna have our own agencies. J .K .in's Creative and Rupert Designs are still gonna be in existence for our current and existing clients. But going forward, we can just build a stronger empire together.
Monique Jenkins: So if you guys have names for a business that you think are suitable, we are compiling a list right now, and the list has like 50 names on it. So if you got something, you should email us, what's our podcast email? It's like Design Imposter Podcast at Gmail or something like that. You should message us and be like, hey, I got the perfect name for you. Because my husband keeps giving me what I would think are stupid and ridiculous names, but he thinks that they're absolutely. And ivory design. I hate him. I really hate him. Yeah. I really, really hate him a lot. Actually, correction to our email address is designimposterponbean .com. So, you know, we'll put it in the link as well. But if you have naming ideas, you should show them to us. And then we'll trademark them. And never give you credit for it again.
Jessica Valis: I've been trying to do like a play on words or a couple of weeks ago when I was in England, they just very witty with like the names of their restaurants and pubs. And there was this one, I was in Oxford and there was one place restaurant. It was called like the Slugging Cabbage. And I was like, dang, they're earthy. You know, that's all organic. But I mean, like, so I'm like, what can I, obviously we're not Slugging Cabbage, but I'm like, okay, what we do? That's like, I don't know, organic and natural. But I was like, I don't know, witty. It's difficult. So we have a, when did we say like we have to pick a name by the end of the year? We can do it or end of October or something.
Monique Jenkins: So come with me, I'd bring the EA game here and help us name this new venture that we're going to start.
Jessica Valis: All right, but back to politics. I'm not gonna lie, when it comes to my personal life, I am very much involved in investigative politics from voting in local level elections to following statewide policies or Supreme Court decisions going to protests. I think understanding the decisions and actions of our government is critical, especially when you consider all the continuous civil wars and dictatorships around the world, we're lucky to have a democracy. And I believe it's our responsibility to participate with so many others are fighting for what we already have. I don't know, I'm just always involved with it. Every morning I wake up, I listen to the daily, I just need to be involved. Or if I'm like folding my bed and putting away laundry, I'll say, Alexa, what's the news today? And I just watched her like perk up. The yellow ring like, oh, what were you trying to say? But just like eating little tidbits is important to me. So how much of a role does politics play in your life, Monique?
Monique Jenkins: less of a role than at least a year. So I will say story time. The first time that I really paid attention to politics was probably when President Obama got elected. My mom and dad were super happy that we had a candidate who was African -American, who was running. And they took us to this like campaign office. And I was young, a crazy young, probably 18 or so.
Jessica Valis: You were 18 because I remember going to a convention where Obama was speaking in Baltimore.
Monique Jenkins: But I went to the campaign office and I was like super happy and like super excited about this like opportunity And I was so happy because I was like all the first president that I'm gonna be able to vote for is black And I'm so happy and this is gonna be amazing and the people at the campaign office like she's so excited They were like hey take these banners and go outside. So I was on if you are familiar with Maryland. I was on route 40 Weaving a banner and getting honks of support and some very lovely people said some very Unlovely things to me as I was standing outside weaving this banner which just empowers me Let me tell you something you saying something negative about me. I'm gonna go ten times harder So we were good, but that was the first time I remember politics playing a role in my life And I will say I'm not the Jessica of the world Like I'd normally participate in the presidential elections, but I don't often do all of the others But I should and I want to I just really be like Let's see what the president and do and they'll never do what they say they're gonna do But I do try to make sure that I'm at least Adept to the things that are happening in my local government in some respects and now I try to make sure that I participate in Elections on a local level because I didn't do that before
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I started traveling international when I was 18 years old, sophomore in, or no, I was probably 19, sophomore in high school or sophomore in college. And when I went to England, oh, huge difference, you know, English. But when I was over there, I realized that their news is so much more global than ours. Like, America is very America focused when it comes to our news, it has to be a huge natural disaster that killed like at least 100 ,000 people for to make the American news system. So that was kind of what sparked my interest is that like, so many other countries were interested in what was going on in the rest of the world. And just as I listened, I became more aware of everything. But back to politics and business, I've noticed this a lot on social media platforms like LinkedIn. And I've been, you know, I peruse profiles before I connect. And you can definitely go through LinkedIn and just go add connect, repeat, add connect, you know, then repeat the process over and over to increase your numbers. But there is value in actually seeing what kind of content someone posts online. Let's address the elephant or donkey in the room. I'm liberal. And my core pillars stand on the foundation of education, communication, and social justice and diversity. If I find that any content I see online or hear a person opposes my core values, I'm going to avoid that connection or remove it. I've been on some profiles who like, I had connected like a mass bulk connect. And then I was like, let me go back and like backtrack and see if I can connect with this person like through their comments and whatnot. And if I'm on a profile and every other post is like support our troops with an American flag, you know, like this post if you believe our flag is sacred, I hope your niche is American servicemen and women. But it mostly ends up being like patriot fishing for likes and comments. And I just kind of can't stomach that that blanket branding when it comes to politics, or if somebody posts something very hard online.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. I like to think of this is going to be a horrible correlation. It's a good correlation, but it's like two things that you don't mention at the same time, which is religion and politics. I like to think about politics the same way that I think about religion. I have my own beliefs, but I'm willing to listen to someone else. I'm not willing to listen to ludicracy. Like, I'm not going to do that with you. But I try to be as open to other people's perceptions as humanly possible. I have made the argument in our household that in order for us to truly bridge the gap between politics, I personally believe that we should have, if we have a Democratic president, I want a Republican vice president so that there is always some commonality between both parties. If the true mercy of democracy is that we have to be able to see across the aisle in all respects, then I think two people from two different parties should have some common interests that are, you know, correlate to the American public in general. But back to politics and business, I do think that you can use politics in your business for good or for evil. I think that it helps you to craft like minds, which is great. But I think it also helps in being able to have very stark and frank conversations with people who potentially don't believe the same thing as you. It attracts the audience segment that you want. It can detract people that you don't want. I'm actually doing an event in February. Shout out to my speaker on using LinkedIn to deter or attract the audience that you want to deal with. And I think that, you know, as Jessica said, before you add someone, you go and you look at their content and you see what they're posting about and you see if there's alignment there. I do the same thing when, you know, I was looking for jobs. I go on someone's profile and see what they've commented on. I see what their interest is. I see if there is a like -minded interest between me and the employer that I'm going to be working on, not on specifically the employers or the company's page, but like the person who I'm going to interview with. I go down and I see, oh, you know, they commented on, like, you know, the fact that they love diversity and that they want that to be a huge part of their organization or, you know, they were trolling people and I can see that too. And then I can make, you know, decisions from that perspective. So I think in your business, you have to do the same. When you see a client or a client comes to you, you need to invest some interest in making sure that you guys have alignment on a larger scale because you don't want to be working on projects that don't align with you spiritually, as well as, you know, other ways.
Jessica Valis: Two things. When you said ludocracy, I immediately wanted to go, Luda! The third one, you're a piece of... See, that's a piece of...
Monique Jenkins: ...
 
Speaker 3 This is why this podcast is gonna take off. Because of that foolishness.
Jessica Valis: And then kind of something else where you're like, choosing who to work with or who not to work with. I just sometimes think of like the products that we use every day, like a potato chip company. And you found out that they donated to XYZ company or XYZ campaign and that opposes your value. Like I know it's only a 50 cent bag of potato chips, but there are other potato chips in this aisle. So that's something that I do. If I find out something. But I've also seen a lot of business profiles where people take a very hard line on some hot button issues like immigration or gun reform. And I find it to be very, very alienating. But I mean, if it's a core value of your business, maybe you're in immigration law or you're a gun lobbyist. Then sure, it makes sense. But sometimes I feel like if you had just kept these opinions quiet, we could have just continued on having a conversation and chose to ignore each other's political beliefs.
Monique Jenkins: I wasn't saying, I want you to scream your beliefs at the top of your lungs. So I know who to vibe with and who not to vibe with. Like people are like, oh, isn't it good sometimes that people are like racist, but they like keep it to themselves. And I'm like, no, cause then I don't know who I'm dealing with. Like I'd rather you be like, yeah, I don't like black people and I'd be like, all right, bye. Like I just want you to be true and authentic to yourself and then be okay with the repercussions of what you're true and authentic to. If you know, you know, in the matter of gun reform, that you absolutely love guns. You think everybody should have a gun? Guns are great. Stand on that. And then don't come to me and be like, hey, I need a design that has to do with guns. Cause that's not, that might not be aligned with my core values. I'm fine with guns. But, you know, I do think that there should be gun reform. But from what I'm saying is like, stand on the beliefs that you hold as a business and then be able to face the repercussions of whatever that is. So do what you want to do, but then don't shy away from that. Like deeply invest in what you're saying.
Jessica Valis: What are some political topics that completely turn you off from a prospective client or a service provider?
Monique Jenkins: Okay. Let me think about this. If you've said that you didn't believe in immigration, like there are problems with our immigration laws, if you completely had an issue with the fact that we need stricter punishment on human trafficking, if you said that you absolutely loved DeSantis, I'd be like, get out of here. So those are things that would completely, people and topics that would completely turn me off from allowing me to work with that particular person.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I mean, even though we've just come out and pretty much said, like, we're liberal, we're Democrat, this is an invalid form. We're liberal scabs. Yeah. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to work with somebody who is not.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. But I will say, I'm not a pollumist, a voting for a Republican. I want to vote for people that make sense and make sense doesn't cross red and blue. Just make sense in your statements. Don't be making up imaginary stuff and just be like, oh, she should follow along with this. And that's Democrat or Republican. Although I've always voted Democrat and will probably always do so. I just think that there should be some common sense to these things. And I don't care if that comes from a Republican or a Democrat, as long as it comes from a place of sanity. As long as you got sanity, you can get money.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I'm running for the local borough council for my town this November as a write -in. And I'm on a ticket with three other individuals because there's sport open and we want to take over a council. And I am definitely the minority in this group. I'm the only Democrat running and everybody else is Republican and they'll make comments and, you know, just like, they'll talk about the president or like, I can't believe they're doing that to Trump. And you just got to sometimes you just got to brush it off and be like, listen, we're all working to work a common goal here. It's okay. I will still be your friend. Our kids can still play together. Just don't go crazy on me.
Monique Jenkins: Funny story, I was in the grocery store like a week ago or two weeks ago and I was, I had just checked out and I was about to walk out of the store and this guy walked by me and he was like, crazy thing that Biden is doing to these grocery prices. And I was like, sir, we did not say hello first. We are just bypassing each other. Like we literally said, you didn't say hello. He said, hello, can I talk to you for a second? Don't you think it's crazy what Biden's doing to his grocery prices? And passing and then look back and like nodded at me and I was like, what the hell is happening right now? I was like, I was trying to buy my milk and get out of here in the next five minutes. So like random funny things like that always happen to me, it seems.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I really like when you're driving around and you can tell somebody's entire life story based on their bumper stickers and their like rear -room ear stickers. And you're like, oh, they go to Disney World at least once a year based on how many do these stickers there are. They're also a gun -touting family. So you know there's a gun in the back trunk, so don't cut them off. And then they also spend time with their golden noodle. So I always like when you could piece together that story, but on Wednesday I went around with two of the people that are campaigning with me and we went door to door to give a little welcome letter. Everybody wrote something to introduce ourselves. And how do we went to each of the houses? I was definitely looking at the cars to see what kind of bumper stickers there were. And then that would kind of, I wouldn't say like alter how I adjust, like alter how I talk to people, but it would just inform my decision. So there were a couple that had like, you know, stand your ground. You won't take my gun. And I'm just like, I mean, this in no way correlates to my running for local office, which mostly has to do with like zoning and like let's put a stop sign here. And it's like it has nothing to do with it. But you know, you just take a step back and you just, you know,
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, you think twice before you knock on that door. Cause I don't know. That's me. I'm gonna be like.
Jessica Valis: when I see a dog in the yard. Oh, yes. Oh, if I hear a dog barking inside, I'm like, I don't want to deal with this house. Not because I'm afraid of the dogs, but because I just can't deal with it.
Monique Jenkins: Nola is famous in our neighborhood, but she also has stole a chicken wing out of the hand of one of my neighbors. I'm like, she's not gonna bark at you because she's just not the type of dog that barks. She only barks when she's inside of the house and she sees another dog. But if you took her outside in front of that same dog, she ain't gonna do nothing except like lick you a lot and steal food out of your hands. But I can see why you wouldn't want to stop at a house that had a dog. I definitely want a bigger dog, a protection dog. I want a dog that'll bite somebody. I'm like, if an intruder breaks into my house, this dog right here is gonna be like... That need a golden retriever then. Yeah. I'm like, you got treats? I'm like, Nola, no, they're trying to rob us.
 
Speaker 3 Thank you.
Jessica Valis: Nope. Okay. So one thing you can do to talk about politics in a way that does not alienate is to keep it election based as in like, make sure you go and vote. What is your voting plan? All right. So I run a Facebook group for my borough, an official Facebook group. And as we lead up to the elections, I've told the other people I'm running with, like, we do not bombard this page with stuff about our campaign. This is not the place. This is more just like informational what's going on in the borough. What can we do? You know, how can we approve things? But I will post stuff like, have you registered to vote? The deadline is such and such. This is the polling place. Mail and ballots are due this day. So I think if you can keep it neutral like that, then I think it's fine. You want to people, you heard people to participate in a free and fair election, regardless of how they vote. And, you know, I don't need to say anything else about, you know, I'm going to be the only Democrat you ever wrote for, like, there's no there's no need to talk about that. It's because the issues at the end of the day are not related to our system. And with local elections being so small, you really just want to get people out to vote. Because usually people just care about, you know, big presidential one, that's the one that's the only one they care to.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, those people are named Monty Jenkins.
Jessica Valis: How has politics impacted your business in any way, Monique?
Monique Jenkins: At this point, no. I will say I worked for a political organization, Politico. So I have designed with politics in mind. So the RNC and DNC, I designed some of the booths and things that are there with my fellow designers at Politico. And I was designing stage designs as well as newspaper ads and invitations and things like that to the events that the Politico events team ran. So I have designed with politics in mind, or at least politicians in mind, but I don't think that one way or another, maybe because of that particular junction in my life, I wasn't as involved in politics as I am right this second aside from voting for Obama at that particular junction. Something that I paid attention to. BTDubs. I apparently designed an event where we had Obama as a speaker when he was a senator and didn't even go. I was like, I don't know what his man is. I just put his face on a poster and kept it rolling.
Jessica Valis: You and I designed a website that was presented at the White House. Yeah, I was like, so.
Monique Jenkins: Outside of that project, which was in the energy sector, it didn't really have anything to do with politics outside of lobbying and things like that. I don't think that politics has played a part in my business, but I think you attract the people that you vibe with and you deter the people that you don't vibe with. So I haven't had anyone come to my business and be like, hey, I want to design something for Trump, even though you're a liberal, would you be willing to? I would be willing to sit down and have a conversation with that man because I'm intro to see how his mind works. But I don't think that it's been problematic at this particular junction. I will say that I don't tend to post anything about politics at the time outside of like my personal page. Like I tell people to go vote and things like that on my personal Facebook and Instagram and things like that. But I don't think I've ever in my business been like, y 'all should go vote. Maybe, I mean, we have this joint venture now. So we will. And I think we should inform people that is their duty to go vote. But other than that, I don't think that politics has played a part in my business. Yeah. What about you?
Jessica Valis: Um, not at all. Um, and I think when we do start this venture and we, you know, have social media and stuff like, yeah, we just said on this podcast, how we feel, I don't think it can really be avoided. Um, otherwise we would just have the most boring episode of all time when we say, oh, you don't talk about politics and religion at the dinner table or your social media and episode. Um, as it just gives more context. But when we start our social media, I don't think anything would extend beyond like that. Just make sure you go in both. You know, it's election day, you know, while taking calls today or whatever it is. So, um, otherwise
Monique Jenkins: It's at CS advocating for the policies that are important for us and the policy that directly affect us like that I'm on forgiveness. Oh, please someone help me. Okay. Let's talk about this across party lines guys. Okay. I made a mistake
 
Speaker 3 I was 18 years old and I made a mistake. I mean, there should be better financial.
Monique Jenkins: literacy and education in these systems, I just need help now. Okay. What is this? I don't like it. Yeah. So like aside from policy issues that I think that we have commonality on like student law reform, which we should talk about, there won't be like, you know, go for a particular person. You vote to your own heart's content, but you should exercise that opportunity to do so regardless of your party lines.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I think if, you know, an announcement came out that was like, you know, universal childcare, I would be like, posting that on our social of you, like, you go moms, you go work in dads. Like we got something to free up your time, go live out your, you know, entrepreneurial dreams, you know, own your ambition. I think stuff like that might be important. Now, some people might be like, my tax dollars, you're always going to get those people. Yeah. But I think some things are worth celebrating when you think it's a major victory.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I mean our tax dollars is paying for healthcare, but I'll see y 'all still be paying premiums and deductibles and all that other stuff So, you know
Jessica Valis: Listen, I've been overseas, I've had to get medical treatment, and I walked into the clinic, I walked out, no credit card, no nothing. So yeah, I could see how it's beneficial. Yeah, I'm just psyched.
Monique Jenkins: But yeah, I think that's accurate.
Jessica Valis: I was on LinkedIn the other day and somebody I'm connected with said, why aren't we talking about politics more? We should talk about it. We need to hear what the other opinions are to expand our horizons and it's how we learn. And I mean, I agree with that. I don't know if social media is the place for it because people use social media like a diary and they do not think of the consequences to their actions and I think people just go down this slippery slope of arguments, God forbid you like disagree with what they're saying or it's just an echo chamber of people who agree with you. In my Facebook group that I do for the borough, if somebody says something and I know that I know they're going to vote for the people who are already in office, I'm not just going to blatantly ignore what they're saying or try to start an argument because I want to make sure that free speech is part of this platform. But I'll comment and try to see their side or be like, thank you for giving me this perspective. I don't need to go on a big rant or say, you know, this is what I believe because that's not the place for it. This is supposed to be the platform for everybody. But if it was like my own personal office with Jessica Vatlas Page and somebody wanted to start an argument.
Monique Jenkins: Let's go. We got you. I'm right there. Yeah. I mean, I do think we're a little sensitive. I don't remember being this sensitive when I was younger. We're a little bit sensitive right now, I think, as a society community and all that stuff in between. But I do think that, like, you know, it's important, at least to me, to listen to both sides of the aisle. I don't think that there has to be agreement, but I think that understanding someone, how someone else got to that perspective is important. As a user experience problem, for me specifically, it is interesting to think about that. And this conversation has me thinking that, um, come next election, I need to do some UX and politics events. Like, I've done some before, but I'm like, ooh.
Jessica Valis: You had some holidays. I mean, here's how UX and politics kind of align, is that UX is all about the research, right? So you can have the CEO who says, I really want to use blue. I mean, this is just like the face of the concept, right? I really want to use blue. And your research shows that your clients would prefer purple. So if somebody wants to have an argument or discussion with me, show me the research. Show me the facts and statistics to sway my opinion, because I'm not trying to go off of emotion in my own. I mean, I do obviously have core values, but I want to, if you can show me a stat to change my core value, then I'm all for it. But you can't just say something online and be in like, you know, this, I can't believe they're doing this to our children or I can't believe they're going to do this. Show me the article, show me where you read it. And then make sure one, that it's from a neutral source too. So, you know, don't send me something from Fox, don't send me something from CNN. Like I want to see the government report where I want to see the independent study so that I can make the informed decision about it. So.
Monique Jenkins: I agree. I will say, I think it was, this was 2020. In October, we held an event about changing the face of voting with UX during getting our master's degree. You know, Catherine Summer, she was one of our professors. I did an event with her about making voting more usable and accessible through inclusive design. Because if you look at some of the forms that you have to look at when you are voting or on a state level, they're horrible. And I think they sometimes, they're horrible by intention. But Catherine is the professor of division of science and information, arts and technologies at the University of Baltimore. And I think that she gave a really good presentation on how, you know, what role UX can play in voting and voting and how there should be more UX designers who help to make the voting process as easy as humanly possible. I also think that you should be able to vote on your phone. You shouldn't have to go to a voting booth. There's a way to keep the integrity guys and make it easy. But I think that the purpose is not to make it easy. The purpose is for it to be a bit difficult. So, I hope to think there's some events. The research is just making wild statements about the government.
 
Speaker 3 Since we are ugly. Things come to sea.
Jessica Valis: One way that I think politics and design kind of go hand in hand is so me and these three other individuals we're running as bright ends. So that's four names. Well, the one person's already on the ballot and the three others were were bright ends. So that's three names that you need to know how to spell exactly because if you vary the name, then the election office will count it or you have to contact them and convince them that like you are the same person. So yeah, so if somebody spelled like my name is Jessica fallus the as in boy instead of the as in Victor, then I would have to be like, Oh, they just misheard my name so many times as you can see, there's no fallus located in my township. So what we decided to do, I designed these things called pawn cards, which are essentially a business card, and all the names are written out. So you can take this pawn card into the voting booth, know how to spell the name out. But instead of just spelling the names out. So you knew how to spell them. I replicated the design of the actual ballot. And I found out the order of the people who are already on the ballot. And I showed you like this is you know, you're going to fill in the second button below. There's one more person that you can circle don't circle it and then write the three names below. And it's not like the English version of the ballot, the Spanish translation next to it. So I tried to make it look exactly like people would see it. So there would be no confusion. Nice. That's super smart. And then on the other side, you know, just wrote instructions like make sure you completely fill in your bubble, make sure the names are spelled correctly. And so I think I mean, that's just one way to make the user experience better for my potential constituents. Nice. Thanks. Yeah, I'll post a picture of it. Nice. On the Insta show the people show the people. But anyways, I don't think there's much more we can really like cover on this topic. Everybody's going to have their own opinion. And for me, I think as long as you, I don't know, keep it hush, and don't use your social media as a platform to project your political views. And I think we'll be okay. But it all comes back to that vibe check. And sometimes you don't need to say your views in order for me to get those feels. So just keep it, keep it peachy guys. We're getting into subjuted territory these next couple months and year. And, you know, it's okay, you vote for who you vote for. It's a democracy.
Monique Jenkins: No, so that's all I need for. That's what it is all about. Do what you want. Do you civic duty is what you get from this podcast episode. Do your civic duty regardless of party lines.
Jessica Valis: Take your baby, get a little I voted sticker for your baby. I get to take Ziri this time when I go hoody. I'm so excited about that. I took Finn when he was like a month old to go vote, and I gave him a little I voted sticker. They should have like I voted with mommy.
Monique Jenkins: God, we should make those. I voted with mommy stickers. Oh, little pins.
Jessica Valis: Yes! I wrote it with daddy.
Monique Jenkins: Yes, that's so cute. Yeah, we about to start selling stickers y 'all. We'll be ready by next election.
Jessica Valis: That baby democracy, everything I say goes, or maybe dictatorship.
Monique Jenkins: It's exactly where I'm at right now. Awesome. All right. I think this is a wrap on this episode. Like Jessica said, you guys have a great rest of your week and we'll see you on the next one. Bye.

#11: 3 UX Tips for New Designers

Join Monique, a seasoned UX designer, as she reveals her top three UX tips gained over the course of her career. Jessica, co-host, who often feels like a UX impostor, is all ears and eager to bridge the gap in her own design process. They go into detail on why knowing your audience is critical, why simplicity and consistency are your greatest friends, and why feedback is the hidden hero of UX design. This episode is a gold mine for anybody trying to reinforce their UX foundation, as it includes Monique's go-to techniques for performing user research, establishing user personas, and offering concrete advice that you can put into practice right now. Monique and Jessica's lively exchange provides real-world examples, tangible advice, and a new perspective on how a solid UX strategy can make or break your digital products.
 
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Transcription: 
 
Monique Jenkins Welcome to the Design Imposter podcast. In today's episode, we'll talk about my top three UX tips, things that I've used throughout my career and while I've been working with clients to help me navigate how to design for our ideal users.
Jessica Valis: This episode is definitely going to be a learning experience, especially for me. I definitely feel like a UX imposter and I don't know as much as I should about it. And it's probably that critical step I'm missing in my design process that would give me more confidence with my pricing strategy, just more confidence talking to clients. So this will be an episode for me too. So let's dive in. Monique, what UX tips do you have for us?
Monique Jenkins: So tip number one is I think that you should always start your projects by understanding who you're designing for. I think that this is wildly underestimated and I can't emphasize enough why you should start with knowing who your ideal user is. So a while back, I think I can't remember what episode it was, but I'd made a comment that I called my million dollar design mistake. So that's the story that our audience should be familiar with. And the lesson that I learned in that is that you can't effectively build sites or any digital product without having a deep understanding of who your users are.
Jessica Valis: You definitely need to know who your audience is before you start the design. You can't design for everyone. And actually, that's a huge red flag for designers when a client says, I'm designing for anybody or my client is everybody. So once clients can express who their target market is, what are some ways we can learn more about their perspective audience?
Monique Jenkins: Well, it all starts with user research. One of the first things that I do is I conduct interviews. So interviews with people who have already used your site or interviews with people who are new to your site. I run usability tests, I send out surveys. So like NPS score surveys where you're trying to find out from your customer, you know, the experience that they've had with your business, those are all good ways of collecting additional like feedback from someone. So whatever it takes for you to get into the mind of your users is incredibly valuable. And once you've gathered all of that valuable insight, you should be creating user personas. You should be creating journey maps. So how are people navigating through your site? Where are the pain points that they're experiencing? How can you alleviate those things? Where are good friction points? So sometimes, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, ineffective design and, you know, how you can lose a person, but there are also good friction points. Maybe you don't want a specific type of client or a specific audience member and you want to be able to filter those people out. How do you do that using effective design? Doing all of those things, creating personas, journey maps, those are tools that are super helpful because they allow you to visualize your users' needs and expectations. And it's incredibly valuable when you're talking to clients because they get to see who their client is and it's great for them to be able to correlate that back to who a user is. So the argument that I would have to, hey, I like blue, let's use blue, is, hey, your audience is, you know, more holistically men and men have color blindness. So you don't want to use a color that would be hard for them to engage with because they're not a part of your core audience segment. So that's a good, you know, that creates good conversation between you and your client and the executives that you have kind of monitoring projects as you go through. They also, again, help guide design decisions. They make sure you're not just designing for yourself, but for people who are actually using your product. And let's get real for a moment. CEOs and executives will always tell you who they think is losing their site. And by and large, they do not have the data to back that up. They are building their site for this hypothetical person, ideal client that you're dealing with. And you can't trust that data and you can't trust those sentiments. You really have to figure out who they're missing and their target demographic can be completely different than who they think it is.
Jessica Valis: When you say build user personas, is this kind of like, you know, writing down, oh, John Smith, he's a 35 year old man, he lives by himself, he has no children, he has a dog. Like, is that what you need by building user personas?
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, so a user persona is a semi -fictional character created to represent different type of customers that are using a company's products or services. So you're exactly right. We are building a site for a 34 year old. It just personalized. So these things can be very generic. Oh, our audience segment is a 60 year old white male, da, da, da, da. That's helpful context, but it's not everything. Getting specific into our audience is a 56 year old Caucasian male named Brad, who has three grandchildren and is married to Betty and they've been married for 15 years. Betty likes to bake and Brad likes sports cars or whatever the case is. Those specifics will help you to navigate what imagery, what content is the best for that audience segment. Because then you get a lot more detailed in what you're building out versus this generic mysterious figure that you really don't have context for.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, in my design questionnaire that I do, I ask all these really random questions like, what does your ideal client do on the weekend? Do they have, well, kind of describe their house? Like, do they have a fence? Do they garden? Do they do this? And when I go through this exercise with the clients, I'm sure they're like, why does this matter? But again, it's building that persona and understanding the values. Like, if your client on the weekends, they go to church and then they volunteer a weekend versus somebody who goes on hikes and or versus somebody who goes, they do all their shopping over the weekend. Like, those are three different types of people. So, yeah, I always build it out. And I also read somewhere or I was doing, maybe I was doing a course and they said, think of your favorite client, building user persona as if that's them. So I, I always think of that when I anything I do, I'm like, oh, this is my ideal client. And that ideal client, well, actually, that client comes back and quotes the stuff that I put online. Because I'm like, I'm talking directly to him and everybody like him. So that's pretty cool. Okay, so for those who have never done UX before, what are some of the tools or like platforms you use to conduct your research? Because I wouldn't even know where to begin. So
Monique Jenkins: So to get started and UX, there are a couple of different tools that you're going to use. One is if you want to send out surveys and things like that, you can use something like type form, Google Forms that you can push out to your audience and you're gathering a bunch of quantitative data. For qualitative data, you can use platforms like Suzy. You could use suzeretesting .com. You can just reach out to people across Facebook, whatever platforms, Reddit, whatever you have, and ask them if you can do a moderated test with them. So a moderated user test is you actually sit down and you interview the person. So you come up with a script, you have questions that you want to ask about a design or some context and you have that conversation with the person. Moderated tests are really good at helping you to pull out information that you probably wouldn't normally get from someone because someone can make a question in a user testing environment like, I like this design. What do you like about it? Is it the colors? Is it the placement? Is it the size of the text or the font? You need to draw that out of the person that you're actually talking to. Unmoderated test is very similar. You can use a user testing platform to do this, but it's you write out the script in a format and a person just takes the test online. There is no person, you can't draw that additional context and information out of them, but those are helpful too when you don't have time to actually sit down and physically do user testing. It is cumbersome. Tests typically last 30, 45 minutes an hour. There are tests that last two hours and you offer an incentive to your audience for taking a test. So that could be a $25 gift card. That could be $250 depending on your subject area. And all of these platforms allow you to put in your personas or demographics that your audience that you want to tap. So you can use that for user testing as well. There's some other platforms. Figma is something that you use for prototyping and designing. You can also share finger links with your audience. You can make clickable prototypes so that they can interact in the same way that they would when they actually are live on your site. But you can also utilize these platforms on existing sites. So you can put a survey tool on an existing site and at the point where someone is going to drop off your site or your funnel, you can say, hey, what's making you want to leave? At the point of friction, you can ask them, hey, what's going on here? What's making you want to leave? Some people will write, I don't want to do this and that information might not be helpful to you, but there are other people who will be a little bit more detailed with you. And that's user context that you really need.
Jessica Valis: Okay, so wow, that is a lot of information. And as somebody who just focuses on the design and the buildable website, I'm realizing now that maybe I could take like a little quick overview course of like UX just to understand the basics of it. But like, I can't take on another whole realm. Like this has to be somebody designated jobs. So wow. I mean, we've only talked about tip number one. Yep. It's a lot. How much do you typically like put aside budget wise for your user testing and like your incentives?
Monique Jenkins: So it depends. If you're gonna get, let's say your audience segment is doctors who specifically work in like brain tumors. That is a very specific audience. You're gonna need a higher enticement for those type of people. So you might be offering them $500 for an hour of their time. They're doctors, they make a lot of money. There needs to be something that kind of draws them in. If your population or if the person that you're testing with is kind of Gen Pop, you just need moms who have kids under one, that's a, there's a grand category of people like that. You might be offering them $25 or $50. So it really depends. I always say you need about five to seven people to test with. So five to seven people at $500. Those are numbers I can do quick math. But you know, I can't do the math. I'm like, this is on my phone.
Jessica Valis: I feel funny to look at.
Monique Jenkins: I was in a counting course. I took it three times. It's not my thing. But you can do the math and decide what you need. Sometimes I usually say with user testing, by the time you get to the seventh person, you're hearing the same thing over and over and over again, or you're getting subjective thoughts. Those are irrelevant. Oh, I like the color blue, or I like the color red. Those are subjective. You're picking color based on who your audience is. So someone saying they like blue, I don't care about that. But someone saying, hey, I got stuck here and I didn't know what to do. And I looked around for five minutes and I didn't find what I was looking for. So I left. That's helpful context. What exactly were you looking to do? Is the site not structured in a way that's easy for you to find the thing that you're looking for? And that's what you're looking for in your user interviews. It's not the subjective, I like the design. It's the nuances of what the page is offering. Another tip, I'll make this a bonus tip, is whenever you test with a high fidelity wireframe, which is a wireframe that's fully designed and fleshed out and it looks beautiful and pretty, you tend to get comments like, oh, I like the colors. It looks nice. I don't care about the way that it looks. I need you to tell me if the functionality is there. So when you do user testing with a lower fidelity, sometimes you get some confusion. People are like, what the hell is this? But you get more subjective feedback or not subjective. You get more actionable feedback because people don't think that you spent a lot of time working on it. Whenever someone thinks, oh, they spent a bunch of time working on this design, so it must be good. They give you very positive feedback. If they think that you put this design together in five minutes, then they're way better about being like, let me rip this apart because this is stupid. That's what you need.
Jessica Valis: Oh, dang. Okay. Again, I'm still feeling like I shouldn't do UX at all. Okay. So what is tip number two for us?
Monique Jenkins: Tip number two is to keep it simple and consistent.
Jessica Valis: Wait, you mean no bells and whistles?
Monique Jenkins: Have you ever been on a website or an app and you're just bombarded with too much information? There's buttons everywhere, there's different font styles, and you're just walking in a room where you feel like everyone is shouting at you. That is why we stress to keep your design simple and intuitive. A cluttered interface is like a messy room. It's hard to focus, let alone find what you're looking for, and people will leave. You did not have a long time to draw someone in.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I always get distracted when people still use animation. Sometimes it works, but I think I appreciate it on a home page when I'm on desktop. And that's about it. I don't want to see it anywhere else. So can you give us an example? Sure.
Monique Jenkins: One way to achieve simplicity is by using common UI elements that users are already familiar with. You do not have to reinvent the wheel. If a hamburger menu or a certain button style is widely recognized, use it. This will help to keep the learning curve well, and it brings us consistency. Imagine driving an average traffic light that you see had a different set of rules. It would be chaos, right? The same applies to your designs. Keeping your UI elements consistent across your application or website makes the experience predictable. And believe me, your users will thank you for it.
Jessica Valis: Personally, I hate when I go onto a website and the menu is on the left side of the screen. Like, it is vertical instead of horizontal. Or if I'm on like my mobile phone, I say mobile phone like I'm using. If I'm on my phone, my iPhone 14 Max Pro and the hamburger menu is on the left side, I get pissed off. It's not supposed to be there. What platform was it on my phone recently? They like changed something and it was like an app I used all the time and it was like, damn it. Like, I always knew where this button was and now you've moved it to a place like, sure, it looks clean. But I've been using this app for years and the button has always been in the same place. Actually, I think it may have been like Amazon a while ago. But I'm expecting it to be in a certain place and it's not anymore.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. For me, the thing that always throws me is the next time I go to Chick -fil -A. Whenever you go to Chick -fil -A and you get on their grounds, they change their stop signs. Their stop signs are not in the font that normal stop signs are in. So every single time I stop and then I'm looking at the stop sign and I'm like, something's different here. I don't understand why. What's wrong with stop signs? They've been working for millions of years. Why is this different now? And I always get really, really confused. I point it out every single time Brian is always like, money, get over it. It's a stop sign. Just stop. I'm like, yeah, but the font being different always throws me for a loop for a second. But it's not like a stop sign that you'll see anywhere else, but you always see it on Chick -fil -A's grounds is that their stop signs are unique to their branding and their messaging, which I get from a design perspective. But as a user who is used to seeing stop signs that look wildly the same every single time, I'm like, what the hell is this? I once worked on a project where the inconsistency was so jarring that users were dropping off like flies after streamlining the design elements and creating a unified visual language, not only did user engagement improve, but so did conversion. So people having to think about the stop sign like I did at Chick -fil -A every single time creates a bit of confusion. In that scenario, am I still going to stop? Yes. But there are other scenarios where people are going to be like, I don't understand what the heck is happening here.
Jessica Valis: understand that. And yes, you and I, we are the only people who analyze every one choice that the company has ever made for any application. There's probably a way.
Monique Jenkins: somewhere where they're like, Chick -fil -A, Stop Sun, I'm in a different pot. And I need to go find it, because I'm a part of this. I have a problem with it as well.
Jessica Valis: Okay, last but not least, what's tip number three?
Monique Jenkins: Tip number three is never underestimate the power of feedback and responsiveness. If you've ever clicked on a button on a website and nothing happened, it's like shouting into a void. You are left wondering as a user if you did something wrong or if the system just isn't listening to you. If you have a connection, like your connection is spotty because your Wi -Fi is not working right. And that's a UX nightmare. The solution is feedback mechanisms. Every interaction that a user has with your platform should be acknowledged, whether that's a loading spinner, a success message, an error alert. These small elements can make a world of difference so that people understand what's happening so that they don't leave your site. For instance, the simple act of changing a button color when something is covered and clicked on can communicate to the user that their action is being recognized. If you clicked on a button and it didn't change colors and didn't do anything, you would be like, is this actually working? And unless I forget about responsiveness, time is of the essence, folks. Your platform needs to be quick to react. It's not just about user inputs, but also about different devices and different screen sizes. A responsive design isn't just the cherry on top. It's based on user expectation at this point.
Jessica Valis: When I'm building a website, I always build like two versions. There's always the desktop version. And then there is the mobile version. And sometimes the information that's on the desktop is it on the mobile because the experience is not going to be the same. Um, even like paragraphs, for example, like you might have a whole story on the desktop. On mobile, based on what people are trying to accomplish, like I just simplify it or me get like a toggle or some things that people can like rouse through it really quickly. It's all about like scanning and going through as quickly as possible. Um, so George, my son, he's in kindergarten. And as a mom who has never been to public school before, Catholic school, K through 12. Thank you. Um, things are done very differently. And I knew that the school was redoing their website. And, uh, it was actually done by my first employer after, after college. So I was like, Oh, I know these guys. Um, but the site was launched and George was out sick or he was saying, I'm sick with me because I had COVID and I did not know what the roles in regulation she's worth for COVID. And I went on the site. If you search COVID, there was no COVID page at all on the website. Like I think all these sites took it down because they're like, it's not 2020 anymore. I'm like, yeah, but it still exists. I want to know what your policy is. And then, um, I ended up having to call the school and they're like, Oh, just follow the CDC guidelines. I was like that, just tell me what you want me to do because every school system is different or they were like, um, you need to click the, you need to go over to the portal and I'm reading this on the screen. It's like click, you know, go to the portal and there's no like click here to go to the portal. So the next thing I know, I'm having to search the site to find the portal. But the funny thing was further down the page, it said click here to register for the portal, which took you to a completely different place. And I was like, well, I mean, every parent at this point, they're going to submit an absentee thing. They've already signed up. So we just need a link to the portal. So I emailed the person. You know, like managing it. And I was like, Hey, I think you need to include a link here. And she's like, Oh, thank you. I'll do that. And she did. Yeah. Like with it by a minute, she's like, thank you for the feedback. So that is an example of UX testing, I guess, is way you find something that doesn't work, just let the people know.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I will say another quick tip, and I'll make this one quick, is I always start with, I'm lying, I don't always start with this, but you should. I always tell people to start with building mobile first, because people literally have their devices with them at all times, people are constantly using their devices. So the idea that someone is going to utilize your site in a mobile fashion is incredibly high. We continuously have electronics in our pockets. Your site needs to be optimized for mobile. And yes, there are differences between the content that you have on your mobile site versus your desktop, desktop, a paragraph of text, right, not be that much, and mobile form, it might be too much information. So you can skim it down and things like that. But you need to be building for mobile, and I would also say that you need to be building for tablet as well. I do not always do it. I usually do desktop and mobile like a normal person, but desktop, tablet, and mobile will help the engineer and team with those break points, because let's be honest, tablets always look a little bit funky on websites because you don't design for them, and they kind of just like exist out in this like ether, or that the break points determine what is, you know, working and not working on the tablet version. But sometimes, sometimes you should design for tablet as well.
Jessica Valis: I am gonna be honest, I designed for Tabletlast, and it is like a complete afterthought because I have those breakpoints, and most of the time it goes from the desktop to the tablet. And so the only thing I'm really doing is getting rid of like columns, so the text reads across the whole thing. And I would love to see some new stats about the number of people that actually go on websites on their tablets. 100% love. Because my tablet, that's four games. Yeah, I was gonna say. That'll play those games.
Monique Jenkins: It's definitely low, but I always tell people, just take an eye on consideration. I wouldn't say I will never tell you to design tablets for all the screens, but for one or two screens, just to like point your engineers in the right direction of how you want things to kind of break. Yes, for your entire website, sir, I'm not doing that. No. Cool. I think we talked about this in an episode before, but people are not going to give you a lot of time to allow your website to load. I remember working on a project where the lack of feedback was actually leading users to click on a crucial call to action button multiple times, thinking it wasn't working. This caused all sort of backend issues, like duplicate orders. And once we added a simple loading indicator and disabled the button after the first click, the issue mostly resolved itself pretty instantly.
Jessica Valis: I always love to see if the Adicon, which is the little icon that's associated with your website, I always have to check to see if that's like spinning. If it's not spinning, then I know the link's broken and it really, this is the off and get frustrated. So, agreed. So even if you don't do a spinny icon, there's probably going to be one at the top of the page, but I don't think it's intuitive for most people. Yeah. I was just saying.
Monique Jenkins: I never look at that's a lie. I do look up there, but only after I realized that something is on I'm like is it
Jessica Valis: The form takes ages to submit, and like this should not be that complex.
Monique Jenkins: Yes. Well, that about wraps it up for my UX tips. Thank you all for listening on today's episode. And until next time, remember that you are not an imposter.
Jessica Valis: or remember that you're not an imposter because you've got another area of expertise elsewhere. Like me, I am not a UX imposter. I am just not a UX designer. So there's a difference. So recognize your abilities. 
Monique Jenkins: Exactly Ask for your money at the beginning.
Jessica Valis: All right, thank you everybody. Bye guys.

#10: 5 Signs It’s Time to Redesign Your Website

Have you invested in a website only for it to sit dead in the water, generating zero leads?
 
In this episode of Design Imposter, hosts Jessica Valis and Monique Jenkins delve into the critical topic of recognizing when it's time to revamp your website to boost lead generation. As business owners, it's vital to ensure your website is a powerful tool for attracting potential clients. Join them as they explore five key signs for a website upgrade.
Website Speed: The hosts highlight the importance of a fast-loading website. Slow load times can deter visitors, leading to lost opportunities.
Functionality: Ensuring that your website is easy to navigate and provides users with the content they need is essential. Monique introduces the concept of card sorting as a way to improve user experience.
Clear Call to Action: A clear and compelling call to action guides users on the next steps they should take. Jessica and Monique discuss the best practices for effective calls to action.
Overall Design: Visual aesthetics matter. A well-designed website not only looks appealing but also instills trust and confidence in potential clients.
Conversion and Leads: The ultimate goal of your website is to generate leads. Jessica and Monique emphasize the importance of a website's role in lead generation and share insights on maximizing its effectiveness.
Throughout the episode, they stress the significance of designing a website with the user in mind, not just the business owner's preferences. A well-designed website can bridge the gap between professionalism and personalization, ultimately leading to increased leads and business success.If you’ve spent money on a website but aren’t seeing results, you’ll definitely want to take notes (and reach out of a consultation).
 
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Transcription: 
Monique Jenkins: Welcome to the Design Imposter Podcast, where we unravel the enigmatic realm of imposter syndrome. My name's Monique Jenkins.
Jessica Valis: I'm Jessica Valis. We're two agency owners who've boldly faced the reality of imposter syndrome.
Monique Jenkins: We'll share relatable stories and practical insights that empower designers and business owners just like you.
Jessica Valis: Together, we'll help you conquer self-doubt and unleash your true potential. Get ready to unveil your true brilliance. Welcome to Design Imposter.
Jessica Valis: Welcome to another episode of Design Imposter. I'm Jessica Valis, and on today's episode, Monique and I will discuss five signs that it's time for your business to upgrade your website.
Monique Jenkins: There are way more than five signs, but we'll start with the basics.
Jessica Valis: All right, because of course, you guys should know at this point, Monique and I, we specialize in the website design, UX experience of everything. So if any of these tick your box, then it's probably time.
Jessica Valis: The first one is your website takes ages to load. Google consumer insights found that 53% of mobile site visitors leave a page. It takes longer than three seconds to load and mobile and website conversion drops by almost four and a half percent with each second of load time that goes by.
Jessica Valis: So that's a lot of clicks away if your site is just not pulling up immediately.
Monique Jenkins: Agreed. I think part of the user experience is sometimes as simple as how long a page takes to load and knowing something as simple as how long it takes a page to load can help you create a better inexperience for your user.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, there's certain ways that there's like a couple key indicators right from the get go. The first one is probably your image sizes. If you're uploading an image in its original form, like you took a picture on your phone and you upload it just like that, it's gonna be way, way, way too big.
Jessica Valis: And that's gonna slow down the site speed. So a really simple easy hack is just to open Canva, have something sized to the screen and just drag and drop that picture in there and then download it in the right format.
Jessica Valis: The other thing you can do to speed up with the website speed in images is to enable .webp, which is the web format of a photo. So it's no longer a JPEG. And this will take the file size down from like 100 kilobytes down to like 10 kilobytes.
Jessica Valis: So this is like standard on all my sites now. So that definitely decreases the time. But there's also implications of slow speed with Google and SEO. And that's Google who penalizes you if it takes a long time for your site to load.
Jessica Valis: And it just bumps you down in the ranking. So if somebody's searching for your website and Google sees that it's taking a long time to load, then you're just gonna go down. And there's different third party sites you can use to check your website speed.
Jessica Valis: One that I use a lot is just legit called pagespeed .web .dev. You put your URL in and it'll tell you the site speed on your mobile versus your desktop. And then it'll specifically tell you what is slowing your site down.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I think that, so certainly check your images and make sure, because I think that's a problem that a lot of sites deal with is that they're uploading, you know, 300 DPI images as opposed to 72, which is standard for web at least.
Monique Jenkins: And it really does slow down your website and people do very much leave your site if it takes a long time. So I think something that I've done for past projects that are in like application funnels or something like that is I use the extra four or five seconds of time on mobile to relay information that someone needs to know.
Monique Jenkins: So if you are filling out an application to refinance your mortgage, it might take a few seconds to like pull back offers. And in those seconds, I use information, I use that time to tell customers like how we generate offers or why we're gonna present the offers that we're gonna present to you.
Monique Jenkins: So sometimes it's about being very strategic. That's a point in your application funnel that there's a vested interest on the part of your client. So they might not be willing to leave in that specific space because they have a little bit more to like not lose, but they have a little bit more stake in the game.
Monique Jenkins: But on your actual like .com site, yeah, you got four or five seconds.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I mean, there's a difference between me going to kayak .com. That's my go -to for flights and saying, hold tight while we find the lowest prices. I'll hold tight for those lowest prices. If it takes you like 30 seconds to find me a flight to Europe for $600, but I can get those flights in one second and it's a thousand, I will wait those 30 seconds.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I will do that. So it really also depends on what the client is getting in return, like you said. But if you're just a standard .com site and you're like, oh, come over here and buy my services, it's pretty standard, then people will be like, no, it's just too.
Monique Jenkins: I think clients are really surprised by those numbers to find out that people leave sites so quickly.
Jessica Valis: I mean, just, I mean, think of your own patients level though. You know, I mean, I don't think I generally run into this too often anymore where I'm like, I need information right now. I'm going to click away.
Jessica Valis: I'm going to click away. But there are some people who are like that. And those might be the clients that need the service right away.
Monique Jenkins: Those people are me. I need it right now. You got some, so I need some kidding. I feel like, I won't speak for everyone, but I feel like it is a good majority of people just because the society in which we live, everything is very instantaneous.
Monique Jenkins: You can access information at the tip of your fingers. And when it takes someone along, takes the website a long time to do something. And even the way that we think about customer service or like we want our food hot, we want it fast, and we want to be gone.
Monique Jenkins: And we just sometimes don't want interactions. Like everybody wants everything right this second. I think that's a pattern of behavior across almost all the things that we do right now is that I should have it right this second, especially with Amazon packages.
Monique Jenkins: Let me tell you something. Every time I view, when they're like, we can get you your package by 7 a .m., I'm like, pst, pst. No, of course you should be able to do my package at 7 a .m.
Jessica Valis: I'm not thinking of... I'm over here like, oh, do the least number of packages so I can be, you know, economically friendly or economically friendly.
Monique Jenkins: I'm not at least a couple of backstages girl. I'm like, nope, give me that today, right? Just send it. I'll figure out the rest of that stuff later. But like, something as simple, I do think that we are very instantaneous society and we'd like things like very quickly or right now.
Monique Jenkins: And Emily's one of those people who was like, why is it so long for the site to load? They must have had a bad designer. These images aren't programmed right. The engineer did a code efficiently. Like I'm thinking of all the scenarios, like as a business owner, as to why it's taking me so long to get the information from this site.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, it's not the website. Sometimes it's your internet connection and like you're in a funky place or whatever the case is. But I'm very much alike. Give it to me now, person.
Jessica Valis: I have a couple clients where they'll be like, they'll call me and be like, Jessica, it's not loading. It's not loading. And I'm like, okay, hold on, let me pull up the site. Like, it just came right up.
Jessica Valis: Oh, okay, because it's taken a really long time for me. I guess I have to call Verizon again, or I have to call Comcast again. I'm like, I mean, the site's up. You know, so your internet speed definitely plays a role.
Jessica Valis: But also, sloppy code is another big contributor. Whether that's HTML and CSS, they have to be very deliberate and minimize. So your browser doesn't need to read line by line of what your website is.
Jessica Valis: It should know that when it goes to your site, every H1 is formatted the same. It should know that all the paragraph text is formatted the same way. And this is very basic back end, three lines of code, kind of a thing, one and done.
Jessica Valis: But if you're manually going into line by line by line, and or this is a big one, if you copy and paste your text from Microsoft directly into your website, that's bringing Microsoft code over. You just don't know it.
Jessica Valis: So you always need to clear the formatting before you do. No, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's dragging extra lines of code in there. And then if you're like a browser, you can override a setting and you use this exclamation point important line at the end of your code.
Jessica Valis: So if most of your header tags are like blue, for example, and on very specific pages, you want them to be red. And the code, the site is reading it as, okay, all headers need to be blue. And then you get to the special page and it's like, no, it's still blue.
Jessica Valis: You use this important tag and it tells the browser to override this setting so that you can see it in red. But if you do that too often, it confuses the browser. And it has to read through all these lines of code to figure out what color it actually needs to be.
Jessica Valis: I mean, that's just like a basic example of it. But
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I've worked on a couple websites where like an effective code certainly slowed down the site. I agree with you reading. If the program has to read every single line of code, it becomes a little bit cumbersome.
Monique Jenkins: But I also think that that's why you should leverage things like QA 'ing your site before it goes live so that you can start to address some of those things because if it's slow for you, it's probably slow for other people.
Monique Jenkins: So dealing a little bit of due diligence in QA 'ing every page of your site to make sure things are good before you push it out live to prod or customers after you interact with it. I've seen fonts. Like if you have like five or six different fonts that you're pulling from like Google Fonts on your site, like I've seen that slow down a website, even though there are like secondary fonts that you certainly can put in.
Monique Jenkins: Like I've seen a font family of 30 is going to slow things.
Jessica Valis: disable those fonts and just upload or isolate the ones that you're going to use.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. And I think there's a million other websites besides Google Analytics that you can look at in order to understand the amount of time that it takes for a page to load. Or one thing that I tell people is there could be some pages of your website that are a little bit slow to load, but the pages that more people are going to, those are the pages that you want to focus your efforts on as far as minimizing the amount of time that it takes those pages to load.
Monique Jenkins: So maybe actual home page takes a second to load, but I don't know if someone's vested enough in your business if your contact form takes four seconds to load, they're vested enough that maybe that four seconds is worth it for them and they will go ahead and continue forward.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, and there's actually a couple of optimization plugins out there where you can check this button and it'll preload the site before your client goes to the next page. So that's something to look into.
Jessica Valis: I mean, it does it on the first click, so that initial load might be a little slow, but then once you're on the page and you're reading through the content, like the rest of the site is loading in the background.
Jessica Valis: So the second thing is functionality or the overall usefulness of your website. Aside from the text, can users find and access the content they need to make an informed decision?
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, this is 100% correct, as well as low time. If it's hard for me to find information, I'm out. I think that this is what people should be using card sorting for. And if you're not familiar, card sorting is a UX research method in which you get participants to group labels written on note cards, according to the criteria that makes sense to them.
Monique Jenkins: So it helps your audience segment. So you have your demographics, you know who your audience is. It helps them to construct how they want to receive information. And this will help you to uncover like, what the domain knowledge is, how they expect for things to be structured.
Monique Jenkins: And it serves as your information architecture and it matches what your users' expectations are. Because I think that sometimes when you go a website with clients, they have an idea of what they want the top nav line structure to be.
Monique Jenkins: But as it makes sense to you, and it doesn't make sense to anyone else, it doesn't make sense. So I don't necessarily want to build the site the way that you want me to build it as a person who owns the business because you're not your user, which I say way too often to too many people, but you are not the person who you are targeting.
Monique Jenkins: You don't fit into the demographic and you're not the person that you need to be in order to use your site. You need to be getting those insights from people who are actually coming to your website and looking at those things.
Monique Jenkins: So if you build something the way that you think it should be built, it might not be how anyone else thinks that it should be built. So you could put, I don't know, you can nest your homepage under contact form because that makes sense for you.
Monique Jenkins: But if that doesn't make sense to anybody else who comes to your site, people are only gonna click around for so much time, depending on how important being on their site is for you. If it's a mortgage application like I was talking about earlier, maybe they're a little bit more vested because they're gonna be saving some type of money or that's the intention, it's to pull equity out of their home.
Monique Jenkins: But if it's just a normal site, I probably, you got a couple of clips. And then I'm right, I can't, I remember this. You got, I think it's a three -click rule.
Jessica Valis: They need to be able to find the information they want within three clicks. So what are a few things business owners can look at right now and say, okay, my site doesn't have ADC, therefore I need to have a revision or I tend to do this a lot.
Jessica Valis: What I really should be doing, blank.
Monique Jenkins: I have a questionnaire, and I'm actually in the process of working on this right this second. And I call it the 5Ws. It's a list of who, what, when, where, and why questions that you need to ask in order to properly design your website.
Monique Jenkins: And I think in each one of those categories, if you could answer some basic kind of questions about who your person is or why they're here, then you can start to revise your site based on the answers to those questions.
Monique Jenkins: Because I think, again, I've seen people want to do design revisions for fun. They're not fun. They're never fun. They look nice. I think they're fun. And they're not fun. They're not fun. I enjoy it.
Monique Jenkins: I'm not saying that we as like super nitpicky designers don't see the value in it, but enjoy. Those are straw words in my book. Okay. I enjoy brownies after dinner. That's an enjoyment. I enjoyed the margarita.
Monique Jenkins: How about you? Like, what do you do for your job?
Jessica Valis: You like your job. It's not the same like brownies and cookies and cupcakes, but it's alike. Exactly. Do you like like me or do you just like me?
Monique Jenkins: I was just like, you know, I was just so in front of them. But yeah, I use the five W's who, what, when, where, why, and I ask questions in order to properly design this site. So, you know, some of those questions is like, who is your core audience segment?
Monique Jenkins: Like, you know, what are they coming to your site for? Where do they intend for information to be structured? Or how they want that information to be structured? Where should things kind of be placed?
Monique Jenkins: And then why is the order of this? Or why is this information, you know, necessary for a customer to like adjust to? And I think until you answer those questions, you'll never structure your site in the way that it should be, or the way that people want it to.
Monique Jenkins: But I also think that's what user testing is for. That you can use a user testing platform to figure out what information people want in the respective sections so that they feel comfortable moving forward.
Monique Jenkins: So, again, back to my analogy about like, you know, refinancing a mortgage. One of the things that would hesitate me, that if I didn't see this on their site, is like how easy their application flow is.
Monique Jenkins: So I want to know, you know, how long this process is going to take. If it says it's going to take five minutes and it actually ends up taking five hours, I might not see that as being a valuable interaction.
Monique Jenkins: So that's a purpose. Those questions to me help you to think about how you would revise your site and what you should do and in what order you should do them.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I talked about this before where I do a design questionnaire at the start of all my projects with my clients. And I even do this exercise every year with some of my clients because as they work within their business, they come to understand their clients and what their clients are after more.
Jessica Valis: So my questionnaire usually starts off with, why have you started this business? What are your key services? And then it goes into why are clients coming to you? What makes you different than them? What specific problems are you solving?
Jessica Valis: And we get into the nitty -gritty of what the client wants and why.
Monique Jenkins: How do you feel about people not being able to answer those questions? Because I think that we start those questionnaires at the beginning of the process because it's important to us to understand that information before we move forward.
Monique Jenkins: But I think there are a lot of businesses out there who don't have the answers to those questions. So what would you think about a project where someone's like, yeah, I can't really answer
Jessica Valis: those things? It really depends on the scale of the project. If it's a $1 ,000 project and you're like, well, I don't really know, then I'm just going to build you a pretty site. But if you're paying me a lot of money to build you an effective site, then we sit down, we do this whole thing together and we'll review the questions you've answered and then I poke and prod and go even deeper.
Jessica Valis: So I'm just pulling up my questionnaire now to see some of the things. So what is your client currently struggling with? They don't have any problems right now. Okay, so then why do they need your service?
Jessica Valis: Oh, okay, because they have trouble with budgeting and monetary concerns. Okay, what about their budgeting? I don't really know. Okay, so but why can't they get a mortgage? Let's talk about that. And so I poke and prod so we can get down to the specifics and then we can direct the user to the information they need because you might just be providing, if you're just saying, oh, we're going to provide a mortgage, that's great.
Jessica Valis: But if your client has monetary concerns or they're not good with budgeting, you need to walk them through and use language that addresses them and their concerns so that they can get from point A to point B and feel confident in your product or service.
Monique Jenkins: I agree. There's a, I can't remember where I found this. I think I found it on Rachel Rogers' site who is a phenomenal public speaker. And she has like a millionaires club or something like that that I was a part of for a bit.
Monique Jenkins: And they have a very similar checklist to the ones that we give questionnaires that we give to clients about friendships, where it's like, if you haven't talked to this person in the past 12 months, why are they still around?
Monique Jenkins: If you had a family emergency, could you trust this person to watch your children? Why are they still around? If this person has been your friend for 20 years, but you guys have grown apart or done different things, why are they still around?
Monique Jenkins: So asking the right questions, it's like a friendship evaluation, which I think is hilarious.
Jessica Valis: I have another friendship evaluation real quick. It's much simpler. One, it's like your trustworthiness. And if someone's just a friend and acquaintance or like a bestie and it's like, one, would you trust this person with a puppy?
Jessica Valis: And the second one is, could you have a beer with this person? And so what I think of like some of my neighbors, I'm like, I would trust them with a puppy, but I would never have a drink with them. Or the other person is like, I would never, I don't think I would do either of them.
Jessica Valis: Then you're like, okay, you caught into that person. Yeah.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, but evaluate your circles, even with questionnaires. But yeah.
Jessica Valis: question your friendships and your very family members.
Monique Jenkins: You can't keep everybody around everything and there are specific friends for specific paths. But yes, I think the questionnaire is valuable in helping the client make some discernments that they might not necessarily have put pen to paper to.
Monique Jenkins: They might know the answer to some of those things, but they just might not have articulated them in a way that's understandable or digestible for them to relay what they're looking for from us as designers, but also the way that they need to communicate that information to their client or their customer.
Jessica Valis: real quick side note about functionality and the usefulness of a website. Can we talk about Pinterest recipes? If I want to know how to make like a keto dessert, I don't need to hear about your entire keto journey.
Jessica Valis: I just want to know how much Erythritol to put into something and how much cocoa powder. Like let's skip the backstory. I'm so glad you lost weight. I'm so glad that your grandma was able to help you, you know, translate this recipe from like ancient history family thing to this now new diet that I don't care, just show me the recipe.
Jessica Valis: Um, and I think maybe they do that. So you have to scroll and stay on the page longer. So they might cheat the system there and the keto.
Monique Jenkins: That jump to recipe button saves your life every single time. Every time I see one, I'd be like, I don't need this backster. I don't want enough.
Jessica Valis: show me the recipe.
Monique Jenkins: I'm just trying to make peach copper guys. I don't want to talk about nothing else but peach copper That's what's on my mind right now. Yeah, oh every single time I go to a website and there's like 50 like paragraphs of words before I guess a recipe I'd be like man, this recipe probably ain't no good anyway
Jessica Valis: Don't show me a picture of your grandma. I don't care about your grandma.
Monique Jenkins: I'm like, oh, Nana looks very nice. Anyway, where's the peach cop there? We're mean people also.
Jessica Valis: But this kind of, okay, so the number three thing is the no clear call to action. So if there is no call to action, show me the recipe. Bye. No, but a call to action is a prompt that directs your user to the next steps they should take as they navigate your website.
Jessica Valis: Whether it's a large click here to schedule your 15 minute meet and greet button or it's a click here to get your recipe, click here to download our free guide. These sections prompt website visitors on what they need to do next because your user is not going to be searching for that answer.
Jessica Valis: They're not going page by page to figure out what the next step is or how to contact you or what form to fill out. So you should be delivering high value content and then showing them how to continue the conversation.
Jessica Valis: What would you say is like the weakest call to action and is there a trend that is most efficient?
Monique Jenkins: I think the weakest call to action is probably click here. It's so impersonal. Like you could literally be clicking on anything. Screen readers, I'm sure that they hate those words because like, what are you clicking on?
Monique Jenkins: There's no, I don't understand what this is. And if there are like, face -to -face click here buttons on a page, like absolutely horrible, can't do it. I think that you have to get it. What if it's something like,
Jessica Valis: click here and hit the team and it's a little bit more descriptive.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, so like those I was gonna say if you get more specific And how you want people to take action a hundred percent like I get it like you know click here is easy and simple But no one knows what that means and screen readers or other software that have to read your website They don't know what they're clicking to so being more descriptive click here to meet the team or click here to download a book or whatever The case is is a much better call to action for people Then just the button of saying they're just saying click here on something
Jessica Valis: There are several types of different call to actions. And you should use them for lead generation, form submission. Obviously, there's like the read more button that will help educate. So there's like an education portion of it.
Jessica Valis: There's the social sharing side of it, like find this useful, share with your friends. I don't think I ever do that. Like the things I want to share don't usually have a share button, but you know, it depends on what the content is.
Jessica Valis: Then there's also like the lead nurturing like, oh, let's have a call. Let's have the meet and greet. And then there's also like if you're hosting an event or an in -person thing, like an event promotion.
Jessica Valis: And then there's some quizzes, which can actually kind of be a little fun. I've done a couple of them where it's like, let's see what kind of designer you are. You answer questions and then you get some things sent to your email.
Jessica Valis: And then you just go on subscribe from that newsletter. But there's different ways. It doesn't have to go always to the contact page. Click here to contact us. It needs to make sense for what you're trying to get.
Jessica Valis: It's all about what you're trying to get that user to accomplish. And it doesn't have to be to simply fill out a contact form.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. Another one I think I hate is request a demo. I hate that. Oh yeah. Absolutely hate it. Just show me a video. Yeah, just give me the video. I don't want to talk to a representative for the next 13 hours that I want them to be emailing me every other day.
Monique Jenkins: Hey, did you see my last email? Just bringing this back up to the top of your email. I don't care. I just want the demo. I don't want to talk to you about nothing. I can tell you from the demo if this is going to happen or not.
Monique Jenkins: I do not need to sit on the phone with you, the schedule a call or if it's been in it. And I don't need all the diligence that needs to happen. I just need to see what this product is. I can see if it's useful for me.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I think the more upfront you are with information, again, this goes with functionality, the more information you can provide in the most useful way. That's just going to help with your conversion.
Jessica Valis: And again, it depends on the industry. Now, if you've got, if it's financial and you have industry secrets and, you know, some of your information is, you know, pay to know kind of on a need to know basis, then yeah, sure, you might need to schedule, schedule a meeting.
Jessica Valis: But, you know, if it's just like, I don't know, learn how to use, oh, God, I can't even take a program right now, like coolers, coolers .co. I use them all the time for like color palettes. Like I shouldn't need to schedule a demo to learn how to use coolers .co.
Jessica Valis: First of all, it's intuitive. And two, I would rather just watch a quick 15 second video on how to do it. Like you don't need to have that client touch point every single time.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, if you can give me the information under three minutes, that would be best for muscle.
Jessica Valis: The fourth thing is overall poor design. And let's be honest, when you compare two websites, your eyes appreciate a visually aesthetic design. And the value of the content makes you stay. And sometimes it's a difference between a user deciding to go with, for example, a traditional mortgage company over somebody who is a private lender.
Jessica Valis: So, like, for example, a Wells Fargo site is going to look more polished, exude expertise. They've clearly got a system in place. But it's also very impersonal. But on the other end, a visually disjointed website can also say it's homemade and DIY.
Jessica Valis: And while prospective clients are trying to give their money to somebody, they're not looking for somebody who can afford to cut corners with design. So by launching a site with a strong sense of design, you have an opportunity to reach ideal clients by bridging the gap between, like, the Wolf of Wall Street, super polished, versus the Main Street, up and coming.
Jessica Valis: You want to show that polished look, but also have the, you know, we're personable enough that we'll remember your name when you call us.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. I'm gonna say something a little controversial. Go ahead. I think I pulled this. This is before, you don't need a website. You can function without a website for a bit. Like you could just work at your business.
Monique Jenkins: Like if you have to like, divide your money, I know, because I'm gonna charge you. If it's the matter of like, let me get this off the ground using other resources and let me have a website that's gonna be poorly designed, it's okay to not have a site sometimes.
Monique Jenkins: You could have, or you could do like a quick site or something like that to just get yourself out there. But I think that like, we are prioritizing digital spaces because we are digital designers first, but also the world is very digital in a lot of different respects.
Monique Jenkins: But you can leverage other types of social in order to get your business and your name out there. Like you didn't have a Facebook page about your business and you can send customers there and they can still reach out to you via platform that you have to maintain in so many respects aside from like posting content and whatnot every once in a while.
Monique Jenkins: But like, you don't have to have a full -fledged design that needs to be amazing and beautiful and aesthetic. And it should be when you get it to the point where you need to. But it's worth sometimes, and from my perspective, saving up the extra couple of thousand dollars and making your website right the first time and not having to redesign it any year or six months or whatever the case is.
Monique Jenkins: And just leveraging some other type of social media than like putting yourself into a design. So I think that is a mistake that people make sometimes.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I think you don't necessarily need a website off the get go, but you do need to grab that URL ASAP because God forbid somebody else gets to see my business name as you and now you're competing over URLs and where you've got to add numbers or hyphens or God forbid a .NET site.
Jessica Valis: But I did have a client, he came to me, didn't have a website or maybe he did. It was like he launched it quickly when, you know, he didn't have a lot of disposable money for the website at the time and came to me for a website redesign and launched it.
Jessica Valis: It wasn't expensive, but you know, it just had some more thought and time into it and considering the industry, it was landscaping. When you compare landscaping websites, there's the guys who are like, well, I don't do websites, I'm going to do this myself and I'm going to launch it just to have something up online.
Jessica Valis: And then there's people who are like, okay, I got to spend just a little bit of money, then I'll launch it. I'll put my own pictures on there. And he said that his clients specifically mentioned like how nice the site was as like a contributing factor.
Jessica Valis: So I think it's a little bit of both. Like don't rush into it. Don't just spend money on a site if it's going to sit there as a poorly designed business brochure. Yeah. It needs to serve a purpose.
Monique Jenkins: But I'm like, oh, loa, loa, handy man. I'm like, I don't care if you got a sign. Can you know the grass on Thursday or not? Like, that's what I need to know.
Jessica Valis: That's where your Google reviews comes in.
Monique Jenkins: And now I'm like, because there's a tree that fell down in the backyard of my mom's house. And we were looking at tree removal sites, which, let me tell you, are so expensive. I cannot believe those prices.
Monique Jenkins: I thought I was charging arm and a leg, but apparently I have nothing on tree removal services. But their website never played a factor in, if I was going to purchase with them or not, it was the reviews that I read on Google about, how efficient they were, how long it took, what the communication was like, and things of the like.
Monique Jenkins: So as a designer, I don't think I looked at a single website for any of those companies. Actually, that's a lot. True green. I think I looked at their website and then realized they didn't need tree removal and reached out to them about cutting my brass and then they sent me a price in that I didn't like.
Monique Jenkins: So we never spoke again. But for the most part, I didn't look at any of their websites. I looked at how good they were at their service. And sometimes that's enough for at the beginning. I agree to add a point near a website, near a house for people to come to, and they need to be effective design on there.
Monique Jenkins: But in the beginning, was I like, oh, if the kerning isn't right on this tree removal site, I'm out of here as a designer? No, I was like, can you do it tomorrow? Or like, what's your schedule? What can you do to make this happen?
Monique Jenkins: And then I haggled the price down. I think that website design, absolutely wonderful. And poor design definitely leaves a bad impression on the people that you want to, but you can leverage other things.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, you should absolutely leverage your Google My Business page. It's free to make. Go ahead, create it. They're going to Google is going to send you a postcard to your house. It has like a six digit code.
Jessica Valis: You enter it in. It just verifies that you're a legit business. You don't have to say, you know, I live at 123 Maple Lane and have that posted on for the public to see, but Google needs to mail the postcard to 123 Maple Lane.
Jessica Valis: Just to verify that you're real. And then once you start to get clients, get those testimonials, because even if you don't have a website, you're still going to look at the testimonials. I had to get my, my roof replaced back in, I think it was January.
Jessica Valis: No, it was December. And I was like, man, God forbid I get a heavy storm and my roof starts leaking because there was holes. This was an old house. There was holes in that roof. And I did again, it was like, I don't think the company I chose had a website, but they had 5 ,500 star reviews.
Jessica Valis: And that's what I went for. And how they did this was they would give you like maybe $300 off your roof. If you left a review, so you left a review before you paid the final invoice. And then they took the money off.
Jessica Valis: So it was very smart. And then, you know, they, then when they're on the job site, they take pictures and send them to your email. So they're like, please leave a review, upload these pictures and we'll take off $300.
Jessica Valis: So they, they were like, they didn't have a website, but they knew how to optimize for online. So, um, I think it's definitely better to have that presence on Google with the reviews or however, than to have a really poorly designed website.
Jessica Valis: Cause how are you going to be like, you have 5 ,500 star reviews. And this looks like it was built in 1999. Like just, just take that aspect out of it and let the review speak for you instead of, you know, a really poor design.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, just went and got a service done a couple of days ago. And this morning I got a client experience is very important to us. We love feedback. Try writing a review and it takes me to their Google Map Business page.
Monique Jenkins: And then it says like, if you feel like there's a reason why you couldn't give us a good review, please email us. So we have an opportunity to fix any issues that you have prior to writing your review.
Monique Jenkins: Thank you in advance. And I was like, oh, I guess my experience was good. I guess I can sit down and write something. But even something as simple as sending an email to people and say, hey, try to help other people find me.
Monique Jenkins: I think that people are willing as long as they had a good experience. But I tend to see that people don't write reviews for businesses unless they had a really, really great experience or very, very bad experience.
Monique Jenkins: And then people will sit down to take the time to write. I should know. I just wrote five pages essentially about a restaurant that I went to that I absolutely ate it and was charged for a bunch of food that I did not eat.
Monique Jenkins: And I hate those people. Hate is such a strong word, but it's up there. Close to the hate. Whatever the word underneath it is, it's right there. Despise is a good word. Thank you. I despise those people.
Monique Jenkins: And I did. I'm one of those people who will write a bad review way before I would write a good review. I.
Jessica Valis: I think because of my work with websites and SEO, I try to make a point once a year to sit down and be like, okay, what small businesses did I use this year? And then I go leave reviews. And then I post all that on LinkedIn and Facebook and tell them to leave reviews for each other.
Jessica Valis: And I don't know if anybody ever listens to that, but then it also helps me realize how few small businesses maybe that I use. But I mean, heck, I'll use it for the hair cuttery. I did that. I was like, this is a great location.
Jessica Valis: Both my boys sat in a chair, no cries. And when a lollipop fell on the floor, they gave them a new one. Like, you don't want hair in your lollipop. So, and then there's that interaction because they replied and they're like, oh, it's so great to see your boys.
Jessica Valis: I don't think they knew who I was. But the fact is that they engaged with me after the fact. So, I don't even know where I was going with this monique, but.
Monique Jenkins: All of that to say, you don't need a website. But reviews are an integral to your business.
Jessica Valis: All right. The last number five, definitely not like the last as in like all the many reasons this time for a new website, but definitely like one of the big ones. Number five is there is no conversion or lead generation.
Jessica Valis: One of the very best compliments I received from a client was two weeks after the launch, they said, Jessica, we signed three new clients since the launch. They all cited the website as a strong determining factor because they found all the information they needed.
Jessica Valis: They had the form, they had the onboarding stuff. And I was like, awesome. That's what we like to hear. And for them, like three clients, that was like a, that's a big number considering the income I was bringing in.
Jessica Valis: So, but if your website is just sitting there as a digital business card and you're not generating leads, then it might be time to consider a different route and a different strategy.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, we worked on my project. I can't remember how long ago it was at this particular meet. It was like one of our first projects. Yeah. For any company that had an investor in nonprofit side of the organization and the rebrand was Color Color, typography, web styles, templates, iconography, website content, brand messaging, marketing, all the stuff in between user experience.
Monique Jenkins: And as a result of the redesign, we saw 157% increase in customers making it to their application page. We saw a 262% increase in selling out the application form and then 142% rise in MQLs from the site getting higher quality leads than what they were getting.
Monique Jenkins: So, if you can leverage user experience properly and you can have the right type of lead generation on your website in an effective way, you can get the results that you're looking for as a business.
Monique Jenkins: And sometimes that you won't get those numbers off the bat. It requires a little bit of finesse and things like that. But, you know, in this company's respect, they were able to leverage a lot of good traction in order to get the rise in numbers that they wanted from qualified leads coming to their website.
Monique Jenkins: And I think that their ideal client range was like, how can we attract million -dollar clients? So, we were able to do that with them and we built this website in a week or a month.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I think we launched it, it was a month and those are damn good results for, you know, what was it like two weeks after? Yeah. Or something like that. Those results were coming in and then, you know, they checked back a month and the numbers were still strong.
Jessica Valis: Um, I think one of the ways you can achieve this is instead of using a generic form or like a third party form that takes you off site to make your own. So for that one particular client, we use type form, which could help determine that I deal clients.
Jessica Valis: So if you were answering questions like, Oh, does your business generate $100 in revenue a year versus does your business generate a million dollars in revenue every year? Like if somebody answered $100, they would go down a different route and be like, Oh, unfortunately, we, you know, right now we can't work with you.
Jessica Valis: Uh, just sign up for a newsletter. But if you did the hundred, a hundred million dollar client, it would take you through all these other steps to determine like, okay, what kind of business are you?
Jessica Valis: How many people do you have on staff? What kind of funding do you need? And then that would help trickle in the correct form of clients, um, which just makes it helpful for you and the team. And then you can kind of prioritize and, you know, find the right client for you.
Monique Jenkins: I think that that's what these forms are supposed to help you do. It's supposed to help you get people to navigate down the path that you want them to go, depending on the information that they're providing you with.
Monique Jenkins: So the way that you treat a million -dollar client is different than the way that you treat a $50 ,000 client. A million -dollar in revenue client qualifies for investor funding, whereas someone who is generating only $50 ,000 a year, they might have to go into an incubator program so that they can get to the place where the million -dollar client goes.
Monique Jenkins: And for that client, that was the path. If you have $15 ,000, you went into the incubator program, or you could apply for the incubator program and go through that so that they can help you beef up your business and information.
Monique Jenkins: And if you were a million -dollar client, then they wanted to start seeing your books and understanding your revenue sources and how things were happening so that they could get you investment money if you needed it or if that's the path that you wanted to explore.
Jessica Valis: Yeah. And conversion and lead generation doesn't necessarily have to be from a form and how effective your form is. It can come from any of the other things we talked about, like website speed, functionality, the call to action and the design.
Jessica Valis: Those are all contributing factors into getting that lead. So they all work together. And so when you think about your website, you have to ask yourself if all the parts are moving together or if it's just kind of at a stalemate.
Jessica Valis: And so you have to answer the questions answered and they're ready to take the next steps.
Monique Jenkins: All of that to say, hi, we are a good return on your investment. Yeah, we've got some stats. All right. Ask us a question.
Jessica Valis: about stats. Um, yeah. So I think we'll just leave it at those five today. And if you have any other questions or you have some other items you'd like us to talk about in regard to signs that it's time for a new website or things that affect your website speed or functionality, leave us a message, and we'll address it on one of the upcoming episodes.
Jessica Valis: Cool. Bye, guys. Bye. As we wrap up our captivating journey on today's episode of Design Imposter, we want to leave you with an empowering message.
Monique Jenkins: Self -doubt may be a universal experience, but it should never define your worth or potential.
Jessica Valis: Embrace the power of your unique voice, trust in your intuition and abilities, and continue creating fearlessly.
Monique Jenkins: Remember, you belong in this space and your contributions are immensely valuable.
Jessica Valis: Know that you are never alone on this journey. We stand by your side ready to support and celebrate you and your business every step of the way. Thank you for joining us today.
Monique Jenkins: and being an essential part of the Design Imposter community.
Jessica Valis: Don't forget to subscribe, follow us at Design Imposter podcast on Instagram and Facebook, and leave a review to help other imposters find us. Until we meet again, keep those headphones ready.

#9: Representation in Design: The Ethical Dilemmas of Diversity and Inclusivity

In this enlightening episode of The Design Imposter Podcast, hosts Monique Jenkins and Jessica Valis embark on a crucial conversation about representation in design. They explore the significance of this topic, emphasizing that representation goes beyond race, encompassing demographics like age, religion, education, and gender.Monique passionately underscores how representation fuels her work and non-profit efforts, emphasizing the importance of making design more inclusive. Jessica highlights the need for businesses to be conscientious about diverse user bases, stressing that inclusivity is key.The hosts dive into real-world examples of how a lack of representation in design can have significant consequences, stressing that empathy should guide the design process, ensuring usability for all.The hosts concur that representation isn't just ethical; it's also smart business. Embracing diverse perspectives can lead to more innovative and effective designs. Jessica and Monique share insights on how designers can incorporate representation into their work through research, involving diverse perspectives, and maintaining an empathetic and inclusive approach.Regardless of industry, this is a must-listen for all business owners.
 
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Show Notes
Monique Jenkins:  Welcome to the Design Imposter podcast where we unravel the enigmatic realm of imposter syndrome. My name's Monique Jenkins.
Jessica Valis: And I'm Jessica Valis. We're two agency owners who've boldly faced the reality of imposter syndrome. 
Monique Jenkins:  share relatable stories and practical insights that empower designers and business owners just like you. 
Jessica Valis: Together, we'll help you conquer self-doubt and unleash your true potential. 
Monique Jenkins:  Get ready to unveil your true brilliance. Welcome to Design Imposter. Welcome back to the Design Imposter podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Monique Jenkins, and today we're gonna discuss a topic that's becoming more and more vital in the design world, and that's representation in design. 
Monique Jenkins:  If you're as familiar with what representation is per the Oxford Dictionary, representation is a description or portrayal of someone or something in a particular way, or is being of a certain nature. 
Monique Jenkins:  An example of that is seeing people of your race, religion, sex, or a million other attributes represented in places and spaces so that you can imagine yourself there. Representation in design is so important to my business. 
Monique Jenkins:  It fuels so many of my extracurricular activities, with nonprofits that I'm a part of, and businesses that I want to bring into my respective business and work with, and I try to make sure that it's reflected in all of the work that you see presented on my site. 
Jessica Valis: Monique, this is definitely your area of passion. This is your niche right here, underrepresented minorities. But this is something every business owner needs to be conscientious of. When it comes to representation, there's more than one type of user. 
Jessica Valis: In addition to race, you need to be considered of demographics, such as age, religion, education, and gender. And while you want to be considered of your niche, you want to ensure your company is inclusive. 
Monique Jenkins:  I think we talked about this in a previous episode, but we are talking about, I think you were talking about how older women are portrayed in advertisements and how they always have the gray here and that's not representative of your grandmother or minds for that matter. 
Monique Jenkins:  That is a trope that you see pretty often and it's not representative of every older woman that's out there in industry. You kind of see those images get recycled and reused and they become stereotypes for what this person should look like. 
Monique Jenkins:  Representation is essential because it ensures that designs reflect a diverse user base that will interact with it. It is absolutely about inclusivity and understanding different perspectives and creating designs that speak for everyone. 
Monique Jenkins:  Jess, can you give us an example of how lack of representation can impact design? 
Jessica Valis: Absolutely. I remember this one time that I was looking into getting solar panels for my roof, and a representative came over, mapped out the square footage, and we're discussing some of the perks and benefits. 
Jessica Valis: She had some brochures with her, lots of greens, because green is, you know, for energy and efficiency. And then there was a lot of deep oranges for some of the text. And I realized the colors won't work for everybody, like my dad, who was colorblind. 
Jessica Valis: It was orange text over a green background, and he wouldn't be able to see it. I told her that. And of course the representative, she has nothing to do with the design, but considering one in 12 men is colorblind, that's a large percentage of potential buyers who are going to be missing out on critical information. 
Jessica Valis: So in this regard, the representation necessarily isn't the imagery of, you know, my father and the people like him, but the representation is recognizing an impairment of the colorblindness. Likewise, consider a mobile app that's designed without considering the accessibility needs of visually impaired users. 
Jessica Valis: The lack of representation in the design process can lead to a product that's unusable for a significant portion of the population. And in UX design, empathy plays a key role in ensuring that we understand our users and we design with all users in mind. 
Monique Jenkins:  Yeah, agreed. There have been so many celebrities that have been sued recently because of a lack of accessibility in design. And I think accessibility, representation, and inclusivity is incredibly important when you're designing something and you need to take all three of those things into account. 
Monique Jenkins:  But not being representative in your content and your accessibility can be a costly mistake for organizations to the tune of millions of dollars. I think the celebrity that comes to mind for me is Rihanna. 
Monique Jenkins:  I think her site did not have any alt tags on any of the images on her site. And I think someone who was using a screen reader sued her for, I don't know, maybe three to five million? 
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I see this problem all the time, especially when my clients are providing me images. And I tell them, reining the image from image 65 to Jessica Valles stands by the window and it's raining .jpg. 
Jessica Valis: Because it's much more descriptive. And when you upload the image, somebody who has a program that reads the images to them, that is going to read better than image 65 because they're like, I don't know what the heck that is. 
Jessica Valis: So use your descriptive language for your users. But also, side note, Google will penalize you if you don't do this. So... Thank you. 
Monique Jenkins:  Yeah. Yeah, you have to keep those things in mind. And I think that's more about being organized and how you redesign or restructure a website is that these are two diligence that you have to think about and they are very tedious. 
Monique Jenkins:  You could have 500 images on your site and all of them need to have alt ads. And the code needs to be written in a way so that if a screen reader has to intersect with that, that it comes off properly. 
Monique Jenkins:  And I just don't think people do that as Austin. Yeah. 
Jessica Valis: And then there are tools too that can help you. So if you have gone through and you've relabeled all of your images, for example, like Jessica Valles by Windowsill, then if you, I mean, you have to go into the image once you've uploaded it and type that in. 
Jessica Valis: But there are plugins that if you have the descriptive file name, it'll take that file name and make that the alt text for you automatically. So you're not going through manually and duplicating and redoing redundant work. 
Jessica Valis: So that's kind of a cheat, especially for some of my larger clients. Like I have a radio station and there's just thousands and thousands and thousands of images. So I'm trying to encourage the rename it and then, you know, what, at least do that because it's a lot of work to be accessible. 
Monique Jenkins:  And I don't think that people are like, oh, I'm just a small website. No one's going to care or no one's coming to my site. But you never know what audience you're touching. Obviously, you want to be intentional about the audience segment that you're going after and you want to do your diligence and look at your own data. 
Monique Jenkins:  But you also want to make sure that in the event that someone does come to your website, that you're able to use your site in a way that seems logical. And that's as simple as like, I think you need to have the ability to use a tab button to get across your website. 
Monique Jenkins:  So to go to all your CTAs, images and all those different things. Those are things that are accessibility issues that people need to look for and are representative of specific populations. So just be diligent about those things. 
Monique Jenkins:  So, Jessica, what do you think representation ties into graphic design? 
Jessica Valis: Well, in graphic design, representation means using imagery and visuals that reflect the diverse society we live in. It's about avoiding stereotypes and creating designs that resonate with different cultures, genders, and backgrounds. 
Monique Jenkins:  Yeah, so representation doesn't just make ethical sense, it makes business sense too. 
Jessica Valis: Exactly. By embracing diverse perspectives, designers create more innovative, relatable, and effective designs. In the end, that leads to more satisfied users and potentially higher business returns. 
Jessica Valis: If I have a client that mostly identifies with retired white couples based on the demographics of their location, I'm going to make sure the imagery reflects this. But I'm also going to make sure that I'm adding a black family, Latinx, or blended families, because we miss out on opportunities when we singularly focus on one type of individual. 
Jessica Valis: And you have to show that your business is inclusive. So if somebody does come, maybe you do work primarily with retired white men. But if somebody is a retired black man and they don't see themselves on their website, they're going somewhere else. 
Jessica Valis: So for you, is it you will... I know that our clients are white men, but I'm going to add imagery here that reflects for anybody so you can see we are an inclusive business. What are your thoughts on this? 
Monique Jenkins:  Yeah, it's like blended families like you never know. Even the white men that you are specifically targeting for your website, they live in the world and the world is inclusive of a bunch of different people. 
Monique Jenkins:  Their family dynamics are made up of a bunch of different things. So you just say to be kind of thoughtful of that. But as a person of color, I know that I'm always looking for more people who look like me in different spaces. 
Monique Jenkins:  And I think that we've gotten to a place where we are seeing more black people representatives represented in different spaces and in different places that I don't think that we did probably 10 or 20 years ago. 
Monique Jenkins:  But that doesn't mean that I only want to see black people. It also means that I want to see people who are differently abled and I want to and not just one type of black person because they love to put a black person inside of a commercial with a little song and dance, a little ditty bop. 
Monique Jenkins:  I don't like it. I don't like it. Every single time I see someone shucking and jibbing in a commercial, I'd be like, no. 
Jessica Valis: Or what about that client we had where they focused on minorities and they only wanted very dark black individuals. And you're like, that's not my shade. Yeah. There's more than one type of black. There's more than one type of brown in Caucasian. 
Monique Jenkins:  Exactly. We are a diverse subset of people and black people, all spectrums. The lightest of lights, the darkest of darks, blonde, blue -eyed, all the in -betweens, we in there. But I think that we have to do a better job of making sure that even outside of race that we incorporate things, differences in who we are and what we wish to see. 
Monique Jenkins:  And I always think about that as some kind of design agent. So how can designers ensure that they're incorporating representation in their work and not just representation of people who look like them, but representation more holistically? 
Jessica Valis: Research is key. Understanding your audience, involving them in the design process, and maintaining a focus of empathy and inclusivity can lead to a design that truly represents its users. And you as a UX designer, you get to do this every single day, where you're taking those steps to understand the user, and when you don't have that UX background or aspect of your website redesign, you're kind of losing out on this. 
Jessica Valis: So what about you? What are your thoughts on all this? 
Monique Jenkins:  Yeah, I would agree. I think researching different ways that you can be representative is important. I have seen websites that are super effective at interacting with screen readers. I've seen websites that are really good about being inclusive of people who have dyslexia. 
Monique Jenkins:  So the font changes and the color scheme changes based on what someone is trying to do. And it's not even that you have to necessarily do that on your site, but you can add a plugin like a third-party plugin that you can incorporate on your site that gives you a variety of options that you can do to make sure that your site is accessible on all of these different levels. 
Monique Jenkins:  Outlet that we know about is many of them as humanly possible, but there are a couple and we should totally do an episode on how you can integrate third -party accessibility onto your site to make sure that you are being representative of that audience segment. 
Monique Jenkins:  Absolutely. 
Jessica Valis: Real quick though, I know that on your phone, for example, when if you're, for example, visually impaired, like your phone will read the text. So for, yeah, I mean, you know, you can use script. The phone's going to read it. 
Jessica Valis: But I mean, for somebody who is dyslexic or, you know, has difficulty reading, when you use those scripty fonts, maybe you're not alienating the people who are visually impaired, but you're alienating those who are not going to be able to make out what the letters are to begin with. 
Jessica Valis: So you have to be consider of that as well. 
Monique Jenkins:  Yeah, I think the way the app works is that you design it. So, you know, I'm a fan of Poppins right now. That's my font. That's why I'm going to font. And Poppins. But yeah, you can like design it in Poppins. 
Monique Jenkins:  And then there's like a, just like you have like the little chat box at the bottom of your computer screen and it pops up and it tells you a bunch of stuff. This will pop up with like an accessibility kind of pot. 
Monique Jenkins:  And then you're able to change the settings on that in order to change how accessible the page that you're looking at is, depending on what you're, you know, what's happening with you and what you need it to be. 
Monique Jenkins:  Which I think is super interesting. I've not used it yet, but I'd want to incorporate it on my own website to make it more accessible. And I've been looking around at a couple of different ones to kind of see which ones kind of work. 
Monique Jenkins:  So all of that to say, being representative in the world that we live in, it's absolutely imperative and that you should do that and all of the things that you do and all of the sectors that people work in in order to just create a better world for everyone. 
Monique Jenkins:  But I do have a question, which is not a question we prep for, but I asked, I put it in there anyway for you, Jessica. Okay, all right. What would you do if you had a client who did not want to be representative in the work that you were creating for them? 
Monique Jenkins:  So I know we had a similar situation before, but if someone was like, nope, I don't want those black people on my website, I'm not gonna use black because that's essentially the topic right now. I don't want them white people on my website. 
Monique Jenkins:  What would you do? Or how would you like have that discussion with your client? 
Jessica Valis: Okay, first I'm gonna flip it because I had a client who was checking out one of my previous designs and she only looked at like one page of the website and she was like right on the cost of signing the contract and she was like Jessica, um, I'm a little concerned looking at this site because I only see Older white men on here and I need to have representation on my site and I was like whoa, whoa, whoa Diversity and inclusivity that is a pillar of my business and my life And you know education is among that two of those pillars too But if somebody if I was in the middle of the design and someone was like, yo, don't put those white people on there I'm gonna put them on and you can you can change those pictures after the fact but you need to realize like my name is on this too and We or we can just stop the contract right there if we have a disagreement and you'll just pay for the work That's done and then you can take your design to someone else. 
Jessica Valis: I mean fortunately I've not had that incident happen and I think When we've talked in the past about feeling out your client If you're getting certain vibes if they're dropping some kind of you know, they're joking in a negative way and you said that hate You know, you know, that's not the client for you and that's you know, that's not how I align my business Yeah, have you had that happen to you? 
Monique Jenkins:  No, because I think that the base of my business is about supporting women of color. I don't think I've ever had that problem. And we vet our clients. So like we talk about before, like their questionnaires from my side of the house, there's a vibe check. 
Monique Jenkins:  I call them, I'm like, hey, can we work together? You know, I throw a couple of jokes out there, see if it lands. If it doesn't, I'd be like, I don't know about this. So I think that we do due diligence in that sense so that we could potentially get that vibe. 
Monique Jenkins:  And I haven't had this experience as of yet. But I'm willing to drop a client in a second. I'm not doing this with you. Because I get paid upfront. I accept all of my revenue in the first payment. So once and it's in my contract, once the payment is cashed, there are no refunds. 
Monique Jenkins:  There's no interjections. And there was a bunch of stipulations inside of my contract about the fact that, like, you know, if we come to a place where there is an agreement or a line, both parties can exit this without any repercussions. 
Monique Jenkins:  There will be no refunds. But, you know, I hope that you find success with another designer who is more inclined to design in the way that you think and you want. But because, you know, design by either of our businesses is a big investment, I would think that the client did their due diligence on us just like we do our due diligence on them. 
Monique Jenkins:  So not at this point, but we'll see. Yeah, I think. 
Jessica Valis: I think this might be a really good clause to include in your contract as well, or even just to have something like this on your website. For example, I think I've started to prep a page about this, about my core pillars. 
Jessica Valis: One of them is, I've said before, education, another is diversity and inclusivity. And so you can have on your website, this is a core pillar, and if these don't align, then we won't align. Or to have maybe somewhere in your contract that you refuse to do anything hateful or something that excludes a certain demographic based on hate or something negative like that. 
Jessica Valis: This is to protect yourself even more, but also just to show, I mean, you're not down for that. 
Monique Jenkins:  I'm trying to think through like recent advertisements and things like that that I've probably taken in over the past couple weeks to see what group I think is more underrepresented right this second than any other group. 
Monique Jenkins:  And I think that for me, it's always people who are differently abled. I don't see as many of them in movies and pictures and graphic content on like super fun websites. And I think I was like watching a video the other week about a father who built a like, what's it amusement park, some type of amusement park for his daughter, who was in a wheelchair because typical parks like to zoom world or, you know, six flags or whatever the case is like they can't. 
Monique Jenkins:  They don't have the capacity to allow those people on those rides because they haven't built with accessibility in mind and like how I don't see that reflected even in the things that we do like I think I was buying like tickets to Baltimore Ramans game and my father needs a wheelchair and I could not find seating for him at all at the game. 
Monique Jenkins:  I don't know if like all of the seating, I'm sure all of the seating had been taken. I was like, what do they have like 20 or 30 seats like, do you need more seats for people or a little chair so that I could bring him because he has early onset Alzheimer's. 
Monique Jenkins:  So we're like trying to get him to get out and like be more like active and in the world and he watches football religiously every single Sunday. And I felt really bad that I couldn't find a game in the next like four or five weeks that I could take him to because there wasn't seating and he cannot walk through the stadium, especially not with his like, but anyway, all of that to say. 
Jessica Valis: I went to Hershey Park a couple of weeks ago with a friend and we stood in line for this one roller coaster for like an hour and we get up and she has very wide hips and she couldn't fit in the seat and they were like trying to shove her in there and she's like, no, like my hips are wide. 
Jessica Valis: I cannot fit in this seat. And I said, do you have, you know, a seat for wider individuals? Because I feel like a lot of rides do. It's usually like in the back, there's a designated row on like every set of cars that come through and I mean, these are just teenagers, you know, working their summer job and they're like, no, we don't. 
Jessica Valis: And then, you know, so I ended up going on the ride by myself. I hate it because it's not inclusive. I can't enjoy something with my friend now. And I got off and then, you know, we looked up and I was like, oh man, that guy looks really, really big, like bigger than you. 
Jessica Valis: And somehow he got on that ride. So maybe there was a special seat, but they're just worn enough to be inclusive. Kind of. All right. So I, this has come up a couple times and I'm going to call it like diversity stuffing. 
Jessica Valis: And it's when you're watching a show and there is like, you know, the white teen, the black teen, the LGBT person, there's the friend in the wheelchair, there's somebody else who's experimenting sexually. 
Jessica Valis: And like, how do you feel about that? Is that like a true representative of representation of society? Or do you think like, sometimes it's like trying to be too much? 
Monique Jenkins:  I think sometimes it's trying to be too much. I don't think that you have to have, you don't have to have all of those people in the same scene with each other. Like you could spread it out across a couple of like, like if it's an hour and a half, like you could spread it out. 
Monique Jenkins:  They don't all have to be breakfast clubbing it, sitting in the same room together for joking. The misfits crew. 
Jessica Valis: This whole show is about diversity. Exactly. Yeah, I hear a lot of this from people who watch Disney movies. And like the new stuff that comes out, like they'll be like, oh, for the very first time Disney shows, LGBTQ couple. 
Jessica Valis: And they're like, no, it's they've been in there for a while. And then people, why are they just shoving it in there? Like not every family is, you know, like this. So kind of a, you know, it's kind of a controversial thing. 
Jessica Valis: We're entering this new era where obviously we are trying to be, we say we as like a society, not we as you and me. We as a society are trying to be more accepting of diversity and accepting people for who they are as they are. 
Jessica Valis: And obviously there's still a lot of individuals who are not okay with this or there's religious conflicts and everything. But it'd be, you know, it's just things I hear as I'll be like, oh, did you see this show? 
Jessica Valis: What did you think? And they'd be like, it just felt like too much. You know, I couldn't relate to anything because they just shoved in every demographic trying to please everybody. 
Monique Jenkins:  I'm trying to think of that Netflix show that does it. It's like the one where there's like a school shooter or something and then the net, I hate the show. I don't know what it is, it's like 15 seconds, 10 seconds. 
Monique Jenkins:  Something seconds, words and then seconds after. The seconds might not even be in there, but I'd like, come on, bro, come on, like come on. We don't have to do this. Like we don't have to do this. I don't love it. 
Monique Jenkins:  So yeah, I think that there is a balancing act between using representation for good and then just shoving a bunch of people onto a site just to be like, yeah, we're accessible. And it's not even about just like the visual imagery. 
Monique Jenkins:  It's about a holistic, holistically being a representative of different people and populations and things like that. And I think that like, by and large, I think that people think of representation as like, if I could just showcase someone of a bunch of different races, that's enough when that isn't enough. 
Jessica Valis: Yeah. And you know what? If you're not going the imagery route, that's fine. I have plenty of client sites where they don't actually show people aside from their teens. And that is 100% okay to do. So instead of having an image of, you know, a diverse family, if it's an accounting firm, maybe they're just going to put a picture of town because they're really big into their local community or something. 
Jessica Valis: And I think that's totally fine to do because you're showing the inclusivity of your town and it's not just a generic stock photo. So again, like you said, it's all about the holistic and the feel of everything. 
Monique Jenkins:  I think this is probably a good note to wrap on because we want to have a separate episode about accessibility. So thank you guys for listening. Join us next time for more deep dives into the fascinating world of design until then keep designing with empathy and inclusivity and representation in mind. 
Monique Jenkins:  See ya. 
Jessica Valis: Bye. 
 

#8: Networking SUCKS: The Necessary Evil that Grows Your Business.

Would you rather be eaten by an alligator than speak to complete strangers?
 
Welcome to the world of business networking. 
 
Join Jessica Valis & Monique Jenkins as they talk about the various networking platforms and strategies. From attending in-person networking events, building social media connections, and attending online webinars to leveraging existing contacts like family and friends, this episode proves there is no one-size-fits-all approach. 
 
Whether you are a seasoned professional or stepping fresh into the industry, tune in to discover how nurturing connections can pave the path for community building, professional growth, and personal development.
 
Don't miss this engaging conversation that redefines networking, turning it from a mundane task into an exciting opportunity to connect and learn. Allow your business flourish.
 
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Show Notes:
Monique Jenkins: Welcome back to another episode of the Design Imposter, where we uncover the secrets behind designs that shape our lives. I'm your host Monique, and today we're diving into the world of networking and how we've connected with designers and creative minds around the world. I
Monique Jenkins: In the creative world, networking is more than just exchanging business cards or LinkedIn connections. It's about creating lasting relationships, sharing knowledge, and growing together. And for all the user experience designers, graphic designers, creative minds out there, you know that these connections can be key to your career. So you should breathe design and know first hand the value of networking.
Monique Jenkins: Let's kick things off by talking about why networking is so crucial in design. So, Jessica, how has networking shaped your career?
Jessica Valis: We network every single day, whether we are aware of it or not, every person we meet throughout our day is an opportunity to network and expand our community. And in a business sense, networking for me has been more than just mingling at events, hoping for a sale. It has opened up opportunities for me to find freelancers and subcontractors, interns, and for others to find me to be their subcontractors, and for me to be able to white label under them. It's helped me to form business relationships that are as comfortable and natural as office friendships.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. I would agree. Networking has opened doors for me that I never knew existed, whether that's collaborating on projects, learning new skills, finding my next job. Those relationships have been instrumental in helping me grow. I
Monique Jenkins:  can say that it didn't start like that for me. I hated networking. I did not like it at all. I didn't understand the value of it. Or let me change that—I understood the value of it; I didn't care. I didn't want to do it. I just did not like it, and I did not want to be a part of it.
Monique Jenkins: When I first started out, before I was even in design, I think I was in marketing at this point. I got in decline for promotion at work. And when I was asking like why, she was like, you know, because you don't really network or you don't really like vibe with the rest of the team. Like you haven't been, you know, doing the due diligence and going out on the little like, I don't know, office social things and being a part of their like little clique. I don't care about that, y 'all. But at that point in my career, I really thought that working hard was like the thing you do in order to get a promotion. And now I can say after a multitude of conversations with lots of people, it isn't necessarily about how hard you work at work. It is about the relationships that you develop with the people who are in your workspace.
Monique Jenkins: So my parents would have told you like, just work hard. I've found that those words are necessarily true, that people want true connection, you know, with people. Whether that's in a networking sense in a traditional networking environment where you will all come to like gain enrichment from each other, or if that's just networking in the context of being at a job and understanding and being a part of like the company culture and what that means for you. I will say it still took me a long time to prioritize networking, but eventually I got to the space where I developed and got better at it. And it certainly was no fault of mine. It was certainly my very, very social husband who likes to talk to everyone, which I find incredibly annoying.
Monique Jenkins: But he would just get into these like random ad hoc conversations with literally every single person we meet. Like we bought a couch and he had a three hour conversation with the woman who sold us our couch about his motorcycle accident that you said a couple years ago. And I was like, I could not wait to leave this place. Why are we still here? Like he brought out pictures. He showed her like his like, you know, massacred elbow and like how swollen his face was in the hospital and like scenes from the accident. And I was like, why would she care? She doesn't know you. Oh my God. No one knows you. And then this other guy jumped in and he had a motorcycle too when he's been thinking about safety and he'd almost gotten hit by a car. And I was like, I want to press so, so bad. I just want to get out of here. I don't want to be here anymore.
Monique Jenkins: But like him being so social with every single person that he meets forced me to have to be social and be a part of those interactions because when people see me as compared to him because he's such a friendly person, they're like, oh, why would you ever love Monique? She's so mean. And I'm like, I'm not mean. I'm just straight to the point. I don't want to talk about this. So networking has been invaluable for me but it certainly did not start out that way for me. Because I just, I didn't see the value. I'm sorry.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I want to piggyback on what you said about, you know, you don't get your promotions necessarily by like, you know, doing your best job. It's all about networking. When I was at Wells Fargo and I was going on my first maternity leave, we hired a temp there a lot. And Sarah and I have stayed in contact for over five years now. And when I started my business, Sarah came on and helped me with social media and Sarah has come and helped me with different things throughout the, you know, the process. She asked for referrals. I'll still give them to her when, you know, she's moving her way up the ladder.
Jessica Valis: And then my very, very, very best friend who I've known since I was three, she works as a government contractor. And she got along really well with her old boss. Her boss left, went to a different company, still government contractor and moved to Germany. And he told, he contacted her. He reached back out and was like, hey, you need to move over here. You're going to fit in so well over here. And so she would look for the positions, you know, that he told her. And when it came up, she applied, he helped coach her through the application process, power of networking right there. And I think because she jumped on it so quickly, the pool of applicants was small, but like it was the fact that she knew the team already. So you can't, part of networking is not just meeting somebody and throwing away that connection. You have to maintain it, even if it is just a periodic check -in or like setting a text message to, you know, your old temp or intern and being like, hey, what are you working on these days? Or just checking in and, you know, you don't have to go crazy, but just drop an occasional lie to maintain that relationship. When did you understand and really start to apply networking?
Monique Jenkins: I realized that I wanted to be a part of creating a community where I could meet designers but also contribute to a larger community. And that's when I found AIGA Baltimore, which is a not-for-profit that advances design as a professional craft, strategic advantage, and cultural force per their website. I wanted to be a part of something because I didn't have it all figured out. And I knew that I wanted to meet and engage with people who had it figured out. And I thought it would be a great opportunity to be a part of an inner circle of design. So I joined AIGA on the board as a programming chair, so helping to create and craft the events that were happening. So what about you, Jessica?
Jessica Valis: We talked about this in the last episode about, you know, things we wish we knew. And for me, it was about offloading. It did not take long for me to realize that I needed to offload and I'm not going to do a Google search to find somebody who does development. Like I want to make that person-to-person connection. And it was through networking that I was able to find the people that I have on my team.
Monique Jenkins: I was gonna say, as someone who has used Google to try to find a developer, it did not work out well. Like I got  300 applications for developers that were in Nashville, from India, Russia, all over the place and trying to like filter and sort through all of those people to find someone was the most horrible experience. I literally put out, I was like, I don't need nobody, it's fine, I'll develop it myself. I'll learn coding before I go through all these resumes. Like it was insane the amount of people who reached out about being a developer and who could assist and help. And I didn't think about letting, like using my network.
Jessica Valis: s you guys know I love LinkedIn. I was part of this LinkedIn Facebook group with Wendy Maynard and she's like this LinkedIn guru. And I was on there and I think they had like a section about like, you know, what do you need help with this week? And I was like, I need a website developer. And Wendy was like, you need to work with Joey Berrios. And so that's how I got connected with my developer.
Jessica Valis: And so again, another form of networking, it doesn't have to be in person events. I was trusting somebody who was a guru influencer. She had her own community of people who were similar to me starting their own businesses. And I would rather work with somebody who is in a similar situation and help them build up their business than work for a larger firm where we're supporting people like Monique who's just sitting on a beach.
Monique Jenkins: I did not think about leveraging LinkedIn in that way, but what I did do, or what I do do now, is whenever a company has a bunch of layoffs, I'm like, I know those designers are looking for work, and designers always freelance. We always got a freelance gig on the side. So every single time a company does like a massive amount of layoffs, or even the company I was working for, they did layoffs, and I was like the only person left, I'd reach out to the designers, cause I had already worked with them. I knew how amazing they were. I knew that they could do the job that needed to be done. I would reach out to them and be like, hey, I have a design business on the side. I am working on some projects. I know you just got laid off, you got a bit of severance, but if you need some work, I have some projects that need to happen so that I could continue working at my full -time job, but also white label their services underneath my brand. And that always worked out amazingly. Also shout out to Joey, cause I didn't know that that's how you found him.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, we continue to work together and he is my tech person. I'm leaving the country for a little bit and our relationship is so great that in my away message, I can say, if you have any questions or run into any issues, please contact Joey. And he's, he white labels under me. He's got his own Joey at Harford Designs email address and, you know, we'll collaborate on projects just like you and I do, but Joey's my go -to. I don't work with any other developers. We have a rhythm and it's great. So the power of networking. And this is also going to say that networking is not easy.
Jessica Valis: Like finding Joey was amazing, but I have worked with people through networking and they did not turn out okay. Like you give somebody a chance and it is going to be trial and error. And sometimes the connections that you think might work out don't people hype themselves out so much. And then when you see the product and the delivery, you just are not impressed. So I mean, networking is not easy. You have to kind of trial and error it until you find somebody.
Monique Jenkins: I would say move quickly with that trial and error. Like you can't allow someone who did a bad job to like curtail your project, which can happen very easily. Like I think we've been in a similar situation where I've asked someone to like, you know, do the design work and not been happy with whatever they have given me. The production value just was not good. And having to be like, okay, that doesn't work for me. I'm not gonna work with this person on this project. Maybe they're not skilled in the way that they thought they were for this. I'm gonna go over here to this person. I need them to get me a design quicker and exactly what I'd need. So to your point, trial and error is amazing. You just have to be able to pivot quickly. And sometimes that pivot will be to a new person as opposed to a new direction.
Jessica Valis: How have you found networking now that you are a wife and mother? How are the in-person events with you?
Monique Jenkins: I would say that it's a little bit more difficult because time is precious, but I still run Ladies' Wine and Design Baltimore and I'm in the process of curating our 2024 lineup of events that we're gonna have. But all of those connections that I made at AIGA Baltimore, all of the connections that I've made from various events that I've gone to have helped me substantially now with finding out what events I'd be interested in and going and investing in the people and events that I think are best suited for me to be able to network effectively and efficiently with the audience segment that I'm trying to reach.
Monique Jenkins: So I literally just had Hazel text me this morning. Hazel is someone who I met a couple of years ago now. She owns a design agency with Rachel called Druro in Baltimore. They're amazing, they do amazing work. And she just invited me to an event this morning about the wage gap with black women that's happening at Johns Hopkins on the 22nd of September. If you're interested, we will put a link in bio. They only have eight tickets left. Yeah, I'm interested. They only have eight tickets left. We're almost sold out, or they're almost sold out. It's not them hosting the event. There's another woman. But they will message me about super awesome events and things like that. And I'll be like, oh, I didn't know anything about this. Let me go and sign up right this second. Or I knew about this one already. I'm already going, I'll see you guys there. And because you start to attend the same events in person as other people that have been at past events as you, you start to get a little conglomerate of people who used to meet in different spaces.
Monique Jenkins: So for me, I think it's changed obviously the amount of events that I went to before versus go to now has changed. One, because I'm a mom, two, because of COVID. And I think that people will just sign up for online events, but not actually intend to go, because they just weren't like the recording afterward, which is not a part of networking. You need to be there in person in order to gain some information. But I think that because I already knew about all these clubs, inventors, and things like that, I am always on the lookout on whatever social media platform I'm using for events that I think are interesting. I'm always trying to curtail that around being a mom. But also, I'm not afraid to bring a 10-month-old to an event. I'm going to slap a mask on that baby, because we got COVID right now, and we will not be doing this one again. And we're going to be out there, in with y 'all. And baby's super cute opener. Look at this cute baby over here. Hey, would you like to give me some business?
Jessica Valis: I told you, I did that. That's how I got my very, like almost my very first client. And we still maintain that relationship to this day.
Monique Jenkins: If I didn't mention it, not only does my husband, but my daughter also makes me talk to people that I don't want to talk to because people come up to me all the time and be like, oh my God, she's so freaking cute. What's her name? And I'm like, I don't know, right this second, but are you a little bit more designer by chance? Because I'm looking for work. Oh, he's got to slip it in. I'm like, let's just talk about this for a second. "Oh you own a nail salon, let me help you." Do what you need to do.
Monique Jenkins: So between ladies, women's line and crafting my own events, between the people that I know and going to events, I think it's difficult to manage both going to an event in person and being a mother and doing all the things that I need to do. But I think that what I can do is pick the events that are super meaningful that I think are going to derive the most opportunity for me to network in the way that I'm comfortable with and go to those things and prioritize those things.
Monique Jenkins: But I think it's the same as like prioritizing education, like you prioritize the things that are important to you and important for your growth. And for me and my business, networking is incredibly important to gaining clients in my business. It is the number one way that I get work. So it's not an option of like doing it or not doing it at this point, even though I refuse some days. It is just like you got to get it done. So figure out the time and what you need to make that happen.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, you also want to think about where you're going to find your clients. Is it in person? Is it online? For example, networking in the financial field, there are, you're not going to find a lot of advisors at networking events. They're very busy. They're going to be at their own networking events that they're hosting, but they're not going to be at, you know, the entrepreneurship 101 networking event or, you know, the one that meets every single month because they already have a book of clients and they're just trying to get referrals off of their current clients. But you will see, you know, the, the financial guys who are in banking and maybe they're trying to get new entrepreneurs to sign up for their banking program. But they'll be at every single in-person networking event. Like they do not discriminate, but that's not the kind of networking event that I want to go to.
Jessica Valis: Networking for me has been difficult. Before and after work hours, just because of having a family school schedules, my husband being a police officer and never knowing when he's going to get off on time. So it's not really feasible for me to do a lot of in-person networking events.
Jessica Valis: But you guys know, I'm all about that LinkedIn and online networking. And it's kind of funny how online networking works because I will get a referral from somebody who I maybe had a connection with, maybe not. And when I talk to that individual, um, they'll be like, "Oh, are you related to Glenn Valis?" And I'll be like, "Oh yeah, that's my father-in-law." And he goes, "Oh, I've worked with Glenn before" and my father -in -law, he works with Cal Ripken. So he knows pretty much everybody. And it's just amazing. And a testament to the power of networking that I'm able to make these connections without somebody who's so influential, making the introductions for me. So whenever somebody's like, they recognize the name, I know that they're getting around and they're actively networking, they're actively seeking engagement. But it is always rewarding when you get that referral from somebody completely unrelated. Yeah.
Monique Jenkins: I also was going to say, be in the places of the type of clients that you want to gather. So networking, you could do that in a traditional environment, like a networking event. You can leverage social media in order to network as well. But you could also, if you have financial clients or something like that, you could hang out where the finance burrows hang out and be a part of their space. You could start those conversations, engage with those type of people in the sectors, or niches that you want to subscribe to. I have heard from friends, so this is a firsthand experience, but like co -working spaces, like everyone there is an entrepreneur. They are looking for some type of service.
Monique Jenkins: If you're a designer and you're building websites and things like that, if you go ahead and go in a networking space with a bunch of other people who are regularly in that space as well, this is a long game. This isn't like one time you're going to meet all the clients you want to.
Monique Jenkins: But there are people there who are working on startups. There are people there who are starting new businesses. And if you see each other on a consistent basis, you can leverage each other's skill sets in order to get you to the place where you need to go. So for friends of mine who have their own design businesses, they have said to me, like, oh, just being in the room, consistently being in the room in a networking or co -working space, I have been able to gain clients because those people see me, I see them. They all know that we're working towards a larger goal and they're happy to unite forces.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, networking happens anywhere you go. I mean, you and me, for example, we could have stayed peers at the University of Baltimore and we decided to stay in touch after. We would send each other samples of our work at our current employers and be like, what do you think about this? So we just continued the relationship and maybe you got out of design and did something else. You would probably refer the work to me if you were doing something else.
Jessica Valis: But another example of networking is just things that you do all the time. Like if you go to church or you go to worship every week, those people who get to know you, they'll get to trust you. So when I moved down to Baltimore over a decade ago, I joined St. Ignatius, have a community down in Mount Vernon and they had a really, or website, there was no logo. So I got involved and I was like, "hey, can I work on this logo for you?" And I did it pro bono. I just wanted to do something nice for my community. And that has since evolved into me redesigning their website twice as a paid, they're a paying client. And then when the church founded a preschool, a nonprofit preschool, they reached out to me again and now you and I are working on the second website redesign for them. So don't discount the people that are in your life every single day who might not be there for a business sense.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. Let's talk about some tangible ways our listeners can start networking. So what tips do you have for those who might be new to this? Like, where should they go to be networking? How should they kind of like engage and start those conversations?
Jessica Valis: One thing you can do is just do an online search for local networking groups. Go check out your local Chamber of Commerce, see when they're having little shindigs and get-togethers. They're generally free. You can always show up as a guest to a lot of these things, and it doesn't cost anything. And you can practice your elevator pitch. You can practice just getting to know people on a more intimate level than going to these larger networking events where you're like, "okay, I've got to swallow my pride or grab some courage and find somebody in this huge crowd to go talk to."
Jessica Valis: But the other thing too is just putting yourself out there on social media. Maybe you're not posting on LinkedIn, but maybe you're commenting on somebody's post and you're injecting your industry or your expertise without saying, oh, I do website design, so hire me for your next website. If somebody posts something and you can somehow relate it back to what you do, but just by commenting and engaging in a conversation starts to build that relationship.
Jessica Valis: So don't think of network necessarily as going to every single event, printing out a thousand business cards and handing them out. It's mostly just about having a conversation with somebody.
Monique Jenkins: I would say get involved with your local, similar to Jessica, get involved with the local initiatives in your space. AIGA Baltimore is the thing that you can join. You certainly can come help me with Ladies Wine Design Baltimore. If you so choose, Hexagon is a similar community in DC, but I also think that they have branches in Baltimore and Virginia. I think they're global, but they're all of these spaces for you to network with like minds, attractive, fine clients in those spaces. And I find that people who are looking for design work are also a part of those communities and are regularly looking for someone to assist them with things.
Monique Jenkins: I think we talked about this in a previous episode, but me and Jessica did a event this year with MICA at Design Fest. The Grassworks Design Fest. And that was an opportunity to network. It wasn't necessarily that that was the purpose of that event, but just being in the same space of as like minds will help you to network with people and maintaining those relationships. I think that you said this earlier, but maintaining relationships with people who you have met in these networking spaces is incredibly integral. I text everyone and just check in and make sure that they're doing okay. COVID is out here, the flu, I have a kid, hand, foot, and mouth disease or whatever the case is. I just check on people, hey, how are you doing? How are your kids doing? How's life? What's going on? How can I be of assistance or how can I help?
Monique Jenkins: Sometimes people are asking for tangible things like, "hey, I'm having this event. Could you post it on Ladies Wine Design because you guys have more followers than us?" Or it's just like, "no, I'm just having a really hard time at work. I'd love someone to be able to talk through with or I have a really big project coming up. I have no idea what I'm doing. I would love for you to white label under us so that I could get your expertise," and da, da, da, da. All of those things are forms of networking so it doesn't have to be specifically with the intent of gaining business, but just like making connection.
Monique Jenkins: And connection is important because once you find yourself a part of a community, you're able to feel a little bit more comfortable and a little bit more confident. And even for me, networking is about price checking my own price point. Like if I'm like, oh, my hourly rate is $250, which it is. I can talk to another designer and hear like, oh, well, mine's is 100. And I'm like, okay, well, why is yours 100? And they'll be their logic. And they're like, stop talking about me.
Jessica Valis: I upped my rate by the way, thank you.
Monique Jenkins: But like you hearing that gave you the confidence to be like, "oh, if Monique can do this, I can do this." And you can certainly raise your raise. The clients who love you and want to be a part of what you're doing will match that. The clients who don't see value in you as a person but see value in the number, they won't. And that's fine too. Go ahead and get your Fiverr designers. I don't care.
Jessica Valis: And don't underestimate the power of the casual check-in. Just dropping in a line. And I think you and I did this with one of our current clients, Steph. We just hadn't heard from her for a while and we just dropped a line and we're like, hey, how you doing? And she like divulged, you know, her life story for like, you know, the past year that we hadn't talked to her. Then she hit us back up.
Jessica Valis: And so it's about maintaining that relationship and keeping it alive so that, you know, when a project does come around, they're like, well, who am I going to use? They're going to remember, "oh, Monique and Jessica actually still care about me. They still think about me and the relationship we had in the past."
Jessica Valis: So this weekend, I am going to a wedding in England.
Monique Jenkins: And she not taking me home. Can you believe that?
Jessica Valis: Yeah, well, I met the groom at the Philadelphia airport. I hadn't even left the country for the first time. We started a conversation at the terminal and we've been really good friends ever since. And if you have international friends or long-distance friends, you know that it's not about seeing each other all the time. But, you know, when you drop an occasional line, you pick up your relationship exactly where you left it before. And so when I go over to England this weekend, I will be interacting with all these people who I probably have not seen some of them for over a year or two or three. But we're going to just pick up where we left off and that is networking on a personal level.
Jessica Valis: So on an ending note, I think this episode should really be called "making relationships and maintaining relationships" instead of networking. But I mean, networking and relationship building are really one in the same.
Monique Jenkins: I agree, I have nothing to add..
Jessica Valis: All right. Well, let's wrap this up because you have COVID and need to rest. I need to pack for a flight and we got things to do. So until we meet again, imposters, have a great one. Bye, guys.
 

#7: What We Wish We Knew: Lessons for New Business Owners

Is the fear of failure stopping you from launching your business?
Join Jessica Valis and Monique Jenkins as they discuss what they wish they knew when they first started their design agencies. From questioning the too-good-to-be-true offers to offloading tasks early on, they share relatable insights that anyone, regardless of industry, can take away.
Together, they take a vulnerable look at the beginning phases of entrepreneurship while providing hilarious commentary along the way (Monique is definitely the funny one).
After the episode, don’t forget to grab a pen and some paper and complete the offloading task exercise as recommended by Jessica.
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The Design Imposter podcast episode discusses lessons the hosts wish they had known when starting their design careers and businesses. They emphasize surrounding yourself with supportive people, embracing imposter syndrome to fuel growth, being aware of business tasks beyond design, outsourcing work you dislike, and continuously learning through formal education and informal self-study. Key takeaways include ignoring naysayers, offloading bookkeeping and other tasks early, attending conferences to network, and focusing on your niche. The hosts share stories and advice drawing from their personal experiences of launching agencies and overcoming self-doubt.
Surround yourself with supportive people
Embrace imposter syndrome
Be aware of business tasks beyond design
Outsource work you dislike
Attend conferences to network
Action Items
Research supportive mentors or business groups to join for encouragement and advice.
Make a list of business tasks and sort them into: only I can do, someone else can do, and I hate doing, to identify areas to outsource.
Look into upcoming design or industry conferences to attend, budgeting time and money to network and make connections.
Check continuing education programs at local colleges or universities for professional development courses in business, marketing, or communications to strengthen weak areas.
Set aside 15 minutes each morning to read industry newsletters, publications, blogs, and podcasts to stay updated on trends and best practices.
 
Want to learn more about a topic? Email us at hello@designimposterpodcast.com
To view the episode transcription, visit designimposterpodcast.com.
 
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Show Notes:
Monique Jenkins: Welcome, imposters, to another episode of the Design Imposter, where we strip away the facade and get real about the world of design, creativity, and business. I'm Monique, and today we're diving deep into lessons we wish we learned when we first embarked on our design careers and entrepreneurial journeys. Let's start with this question. What's one thing you wish you knew when you first started your design career? 
Jessica Valis: This is a "wish I'd known" and a "wish I'd done". And that is to surround yourself with people who support you. And I know this probably feels, I don't know, a little obvious, but I had, and I still have people in my life who are so focused on the corporate money-making aspect of just having a job rather than what I enjoy doing for work. That when times get tough, the answer for them is always, ""well, maybe you should start looking back to corporate. my advice is to ignore the naysayers and just take the leap because I waited about four years to make that leap. Maybe it was my own self-doubt coupled with the disapproval of others that kept me from launching my business sooner. But now that I'm my own boss, I'm the happiest I've ever been in my career, my husband has never once questioned it, asked me to go back to work for somebody else, and I don't think I could at this point. Just having the flexibility and everything is something I could never give up. what about you? What would you say? 
Monique Jenkins: So I want to double down on something that you said. I think that people are very easy. It is seemed in my career. People are very easy and very willing to tell you to go back to a corporate job because it is easy to work at a place for 20 years, have no advancement, kind of just go with the flow in order to earn a steady paycheck and they're okay with that lifestyle. And I think I've worked at a multitude of companies where I was like, "oh, so you've been here for 30 years or whatever the case is and you are completely content. You've probably never gotten a raise. You're not interested in a promotion. You're just kind of okay with staying in the same place." 
Monique Jenkins: And I think that that's fine for some people. That's just not what I would want for myself or what I would want for the people around me. And having your own business does truly give you the flexibility that you need. But to answer your question, if I had to choose one thing, I would say embrace the imposter syndrome rather than fearing it. I feel like it's super normal at the beginning to have imposter syndrome, but that feeling can help you to fuel growth and learning. 
Monique Jenkins: So when I first started, I think I paused in that fear for a little bit too long. The idea that everything should be perfect made me feel like the journey wasn't about learning. The journey was more about the destination than getting there. all of the things that I didn't know made me feel like I was never gonna know it and it made me feel like I wasn't any good. So I overcompensated with education. 
Monique Jenkins: I remember applying to the University of Baltimore's PhD program and how I had really mixed feelings about what I wanted to do because I felt it would make people take me a little bit more seriously. And I ended up, long story short, not going to University of Baltimore. And when the recruiter asked me why, I got super transparent in an email, which is something that I had not done at that point. But in 2020, for some reason, I was like, I'm just gonna be brutally honest with people. I don't care how they take it. I'm just gonna let it be what it is.
Monique Jenkins: So I wrote her email and I said, "In all honesty, as a black woman, I have used my education as validation that my opinion belongs in the room and it validates that I'm worthy for people to listen to me. I'm trying to redevelop how I see myself and try to allow myself space to accept that my opinion is valid without a degree and that my voice should be important because it's different from other people's in the room." And I've been thinking about that in relation to my own imposter syndrome and how it affects how I'm gonna move forward in my education and outside of that. And ever since then, I just started to challenge myself to get out of my own head. And that's kind of what led me into space with my own business. 
Jessica Valis: Yeah, I think in terms of things we wish we knew when we started our business, I wish we knew not to question our own judgment or to doubt ourselves. that's the very first hurdle that you need to get over in order to start your business. It's just to take the lead. 
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, agreed. 
Jessica Valis: Were there any surprises you encountered when you were first starting your own design agency? 
Monique Jenkins: I think the business side of things, I wish I'd known that it's not just about the design skills. Being a business owner is about wearing a bunch of different hats. So from marketing to client management to finances, running a design business involves a lot more than just creating beautiful visuals. And when I first started, it was very much all about design. But then you have to switch your hat to be a programmer and a year, your accountant, and your collections if people are paying you on time and developer and designer and marketer and CEO, your social media guru and all these things in between. Having that balance is really hard, especially when you might not truly love running the business and you just want to focus on the design aspects. But that's not true when you own your own business. What about you? 
Jessica Valis: What you said is definitely one of them, but I have two things. The surprises that I encountered aren't so much surprises as they are kind of like scammy things. And it's to be aware of all the new offers that you get as a business owner. 
Jessica Valis: So I'm specifically looking at Yelp because when I first started my business, I was like, okay, I'm going to get my Google listing. I'm going to get my Yahoo listing. I'm going to get my Yelp listing. And you sign up for Yelp. They have somebody call you and they're like, oh, you know, thank you so much for joining. Uh, we're going to get you a $500 paper click credit when you, you, since you signed up. And you're like, okay, what does that mean? Like, well, you basically have $500 to advertise your business. And every time somebody clicks on your business, you know, that just, you're pretty much paying for a lead. And I was like, okay, how many times is somebody going to click on mine? So like a week goes by and little did I know that the $500 credit would expire in like one day. And I was brand new business. I didn't even have a client yet. And I'm stuck with a $500, an additional $500 bill because more people clicked. Wow. And I didn't, and I called them. I was like, I don't even have a lead yet. So you're selling me a thousand dollars later that, you know, so be aware of the scams and all the offers for new business owners because you might think they want to help you, but they're not. They're just looking to make easy money. 
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I would say the amount of like emails and messages that you get where people advertising like SEO services or marketing services. I even have people come to me asking if I need design help, like design services, like, oh, we can redo your website for you. I'm like, you don't even know anything about me because if you did, you would know that I am a design agency. Design assistance is probably, I don't need you to make my website. I made the website. I don't need you to do that for me. All of those services out here are just insane. So just be wary. 
Jessica Valis: Yeah, and this leads me kind of to my second thing. Obviously, you're getting these emails about marketing, about SEO, about do you need an executive assistant? And you do need those things. You should offload the things you don't like to do earlier on because you cannot wear so many hats. And it's not just for design. It's for any business that you start. 
Jessica Valis: When you start, you need to get your EIN number and then you've got to get your bank account and then you got to hire yourself a bookkeeper and an accountant. And then you just have to go through all these steps and you have to figure out very early on what is your strength, what is your weakness. And if you don't even want to file for the EIN with the government or you don't even want to open the bank account, you can get somebody else to do that for you. So figure out early on what you can and can't do and then hire somebody that you trust to do this. Don't just go with the first email marketing scheme that comes your way. 
Jessica Valis: But it does take a lot of stress off of you when you're not trying to manage every single role in your company because it is more than just design. It's payroll. It's the bookkeeping. A lot of it is financial. I mean, let's be real. A lot of it is financial and it gets really messy if you are trying to manage a team, work with clients, market and everything else. The first thing is to absolutely go find yourself a bookkeeper and an accountant. You do not want to be stuck in the mud with that stuff when you're working towards due dates, prospecting and intact season? 
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. I will say don't allow yourself to get stuck in the idea that you have to have all of those things sorted out. Because that was the thing that held me up in my business at first is like, I'm a very regimented person in some respects. I'm like, "I want to do everything right. I need to get the LLC. And then I need to have business insurance. And then I need to make sure I find an account in and I need to make sure I have that EIN. And I need to do dada, dada, dada, dada."
Monique Jenkins: And I think that me having all of that figured out at first, because there isn't a manual for how you do all of those things made me hesitate. I'm like, "oh my God, I'm going to get sued." I'm like, "You're not going to get sued. You don't even have a client." Like we don't need to be worried about your freaking business. Like, McDonald's reading about the fact that McDonald's got sued for a bunch of money for spilled coffee or hot chicken.  I was like, "Oh my God, someone's going to sue me and they're going to take my house and I need to make sure my assets are separate. And dada, dada, dada." I'm like, "You don't even have a client. You don't need to be worried about that. You just need to be worried about how to get your first client." 
Monique Jenkins: So yeah, I 100% believe offload the things that you cannot handle or that you don't enjoy at all to someone else. But don't get stuck in the idea that you have to have it all figured out before you make progress. 
Jessica Valis: Oh yeah, because I definitely did not have any of these things when I started. You remember I was laid off, had a baby, and COVID started. So finances were very, very tight. So I took on every single role. And when I eventually did get a bookkeeper, she put me online and she's like, "why are you taking personal spending out of this? Why are you paying yourself like this?" 
Jessica Valis: And you know what? It's fine to have somebody that you hire yell at you and tell you to do something right. Just because you do it that way a couple times or a couple years or whatever, you're going to get it right down the line when you can afford to do those things. But the most important thing is that you're not doing it by yourself the entire time. And your business then becomes so stressful that you can't even. 
Jessica Valis: On this topic, I want to challenge everybody listening to do this right now. Or maybe when you get home, if you're driving or if you're busy doing something else. So I've read this exercise in a couple of marketing books and after listening to some podcasts or just doing some business classes.
Jessica Valis: I want you to get some index cards or a piece of paper and write down every single task that is required for your business. And it can include everything from prospecting, email marketing, social media, onboarding, billing, client management, balance in the books, filing taxes, project coordination, designing, development. I mean, it just goes on and on and on and you can get really deep into it. 
Jessica Valis: But I want you to begin to sort those tasks into three categories. One pile or category should be "only I can do this." The second one should be "someone else can do this." And number three is "I really hate doing this." And you'll see that there really isn't one thing that only you can do. So if you can seek help early on and realize that you don't need to be a one man team. And I've actually found that as my business has grown, the more I offload, the more money I'm actually able to bring in. 
Jessica Valis: So you think by doing it all yourself and you're saving money, but when you're able to give it to somebody else who can do it more effectively, it ultimately saves you money. And you can focus on bringing in more money. Yes. Yes. 
Monique Jenkins: In relation to that, I think you have to think about long term what you want from your business, not what your business provides to you today. Five years out from now, you don't want to be the only person in your business that can do every single thing because, you know, that's not fun. I want to be personally, I want to be sitting on a beach, not thinking about design at all, offloaded all this stuff to other people and just collecting money. That's what I want to be doing. And I do not want to be in the minutia of the everyday color palette for every single business. 
Monique Jenkins: But I will say when you're a CEO and you're able to like, you know, spread the word and kind of offload the things that you can, you can pick the projects that mean a lot to you and you can interject into those spaces as opposed to being a part of every single thing. If your clients only trust you and don't trust any of the people that you are working with in order for a project to be successful, you have to have your hand in it at all times. That's not what I want for my business. That's not the end goal. In five years, I don't want to be talking to nobody. I want to be doing nothing. I just want to be collecting checks on somebody's beach somewhere with my family, having a good time. 
Jessica Valis: I know. I think it speaks volumes about your team if your clients don't trust your team.
Monique Jenkins: Speaking of skills, let's talk about continuous learning. How important has that been for you and what do you wish you knew about it early on? 
Jessica Valis: College is expensive and if you work for a corporation or hold a government office, you should see if they're going to pay for your higher education because you do not want to be stuck with this bill and drown in debt. I do believe continuing education is important, but I don't think it's essential. No client or employer has ever given me a raise because I got my master's degree. And it's kind of funny because my husband actually uses this against me. I'll be doing something stupid around the house and he'll be like, don't you have a master's degree? I'm like, yeah, but not in how to replace a dishwasher or don't you have a master's degree in this? I'm like, yeah, but not in Civil War era history. So like he kind of jokes about it. And you know, it just, it just goes to show it doesn't really matter, you know? 
Jessica Valis: That being said, education is a pillar in core value of my life and my business. And continuous learning doesn't necessarily need to come from an accredited university or even relate to your career. Listening to a podcast about the news or watching a mini series or reading a memoir, you just need to continue to learn. And you and me hosting a podcast, we're still learning. And I'm going to continue to listen to other people's podcasts who do something similar to what we do. And it's just going to continue to inspire and make me a better podcast host. 
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I'll say I use my master's degree for evil all the time. I like when someone's like, “oh, money, your pricing is super high.” I'm like, “yeah, I have a master's degree, but you've got to pay this pricing” I'm like, I really be like, uh, yeah, I have a master's degree. And you know what this, those student loans, they don't come cheap, bro. You got to pay this off. This is my students will for due next month. Come on. I know they roll in these payments back up. I need to do it. I gotta be doing it. I don't like it. 
But yeah, I use that for evil all the time. Brian will be looking for something in the refrigerator and he can't find it. And I'll come over and I'll pull it out. And he'll be like, that was a third second ago. I'd be like, if you had a master's degree, you'd be able to see that catcher behind the muster. See, you use it the opposite way of. 
Jessica Valis: Chris uses it to make fun and I mean it's all in joke and good humor... 
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. He's like, "I'm so sick of hearing about Monique's master's degree. I'm so tired of her." But yeah, I'm like "Color theory. Ketchup is red, tomatoes are red." So I'm a nuisance in my household. 
Jessica Valis: Oh my gosh, I should try that. 
Monique Jenkins: Yes. But I do use my master's degree. Whenever a client is like, "oh, why should I pay that much?" I'm like, "because you're paying for not only the experience I have, but the education that comes with it," which is like, you know, you ain't going to spend four years or two years of how much time it took me getting this master's degree. You got to pay for some of what you pay for the expertise.
Monique Jenkins: But I'm serious. No. My rule of thumb is to question everything and to take nothing at face value until you can substantiate each claim. I think that you should always be learning because the more you know, the more powerful you become. And that's not for, that's not in a traditional educational environment. It's not college per se. It's, you know, on YouTube university or whatever, you know, platform out there that helps you to learn whatever you need to know. 
Monique Jenkins: I do think continuous learning is crucial. I wish I had known that learning doesn't stop in this field. I think as a designer, there are always going to be new design tools. There are different business strategies. There's an understanding of human psychology and UX. And there's always something new to explore and you have to be willing and able to go out and source that information for yourself if you're not willing to do it in a traditional environment. 
Monique Jenkins: For me, when I was going to school, the only reason I have a master's degree is because like I am not a great self -starter on the learning front. I want to get all of the information in five minutes. If I don't have the regiment of like, I have to go to class every Wednesday at five o 'clock and I know that homework is due, I'm not going to do it probably. That's just my personal learning style. But I know that if I paid for college, I'm going to school. I don't waste money on classes. I'm going to be learning. I'm going to be doing the best that I can. I'm getting A in this class because I'm super competitive. But I'm not going to waste. Yeah, I'm not going to waste the money that I just gave these people messing around with with the education. So I'm going to do the due diligence if it's in a traditional classroom environment because that's how I thrive. 
Monique Jenkins: If it's YouTube or something like that, because you have the ability to stop and go whenever you want to and like life is crazy and things are happening, I find for me that I'm generally like, "Oh, I want to start this tomorrow" and then tomorrow turns into tomorrow turns into tomorrow turns into next week turns into next year and you just don't like do it. So for me, traditional education is always been about holding myself accountable and having other people hold me accountable. Teachers and things that as opposed to having to maintain that schedule for myself. But I do think that, you know, learning new skill sets is incredibly valuable. You never stop learning as a designer. There are always different things for you to ingest and to take in. And even if it's not on learning about different design things, for me, every single industry that you go in, you have to ingest so much information about that industry that you're working on for that specific design. Because what works in an educational setting as far as design is concerned, might not work in a fintech environment, might not work in, you know, healthcare might not work in yada, yada, yada. 
Monique Jenkins: So as a designer, I think you're forced to continuously be learning about different areas of industries, because you don't really have a choice when you jump in with a new client. If it's not in, if you haven't defined your niche like me, you have a niche, you have a niche. I have a niche. It's just a soft one. But if you haven't like, you know, specifically said I want to be like yours is financial services. I think I want to be in financial services every single time you take on a new client, you have to start learning about their industry and how they do things and their respect. To me, that's continuous learning, even if it doesn't have a direct correlation to design specifically. And I think that makes me better for the next client because I'm like, Oh, I know a little bit about a lot of stuff, y 'all. 
Jessica Valis: Absolutely. And when we got our degrees, some of the things that we took classes on are no longer relevant. I remember getting my bachelors, I had to sit down and I had to take a PowerPoint class, and I had to take a class on Excel and Microsoft Word. And I'm like, “excuse me, I grew up with these things. I've been doing Microsoft programs since 1995 when I was like in the what, second or third grade.” 
But this is kind of a weird story, not really weird, but I have a family member, distant-distant family member who has a degree in communication. And think way back to the 90s when telemarketing was a huge thing and people would cold call you at dinner. This family member has a degree in telemarketing. But now we fast forward to 2023 and telemarketing is just not applicable anymore because it's done by robo bots. Or is that it robo bots? 
Monique Jenkins: I'm gonna say yes. I'm sick y 'all. I'm gonna say yes. 
Monique Jenkins: I'm 100% happy with COVID right now. It's all the things, yep. 
Jessica Valis: So, he has a degree in communication specialized in telemarketing. Telemarketing is no longer relevant. So you have to continue to learn. Otherwise, what you have a degree in is no longer relevant. 
Jessica Valis: So even with design, you know,I said, taking PowerPoint classes, like now they might do stuff on, I don't know, designing in, what is it? Google, Google presentation. Google Sheets. Google Sheets. It's like, oh yeah, you know, there's so many better options now. So those are things that I have to force myself to learn because I know that my clients are using them. I don't use them, but my clients are. So I have to go back and continuously learn. 
Jessica Valis: And the beauty of this golden internet age is that you can just quickly find something on Google or read a quick tutorial. Or just, you don't even have to listen to the tutorials half the time. You can just watch and pause the screen at a click, click, click. And then, you know, you're ready to go. Um, that being said, I don't think I'll ever feel fully competent as a designer just because of how quickly everything is evolving with the age of technology and AI. And I mean, that's the imposter syndrome for you. 
Jessica Valis: So continuing education and focusing on what it is that you're good at, I think too. Um, and that's another reason it's important to offload because you need to focus on what it is. Or you need to focus on the reason you started your business in the first place. And if that's going to require extra education hours, then that's what you need to focus on instead of trying to muddy your hands with bookkeeping or something like that. 
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, there's one other thing that I wish I had done, which is take more time to attend conferences and network in those spaces, because I think that people that you meet there will help to make or break your career, or can help to help make or break your career. 
Monique Jenkins: I think I mentioned that I went to a conference a few weeks back, and from that conference, I got to meet some incredible designers that I wouldn't have otherwise have ever gotten to meet. I think one is from Tennessee, the other one is from maybe Chicago. But I would have never had access to these people. So I think being able to go to conferences and kind of network with people who are not specifically local or central to your location is important. I also got an opportunity to meet some startup founders who are looking for UX designer to help create an application that they're working on. And I think those connections are priceless. I would have not had an opportunity to quote them or a project if I had not gone and been in that space and been open and vulnerable with them about what I liked and did not like about the application that they had in a very nice and fun way. Well, I wasn't fun or nice about it, but- 
Jessica Valis: Your sarcasm makes you feel fun.
Monique Jenkins: I think that's what it is. It's not sarcasm, because I literally was like, "so why you think these colors?" And he was like, "I like them." And I was like, "not okay. And not okay at all." And one of the other designers was like, "yeah, Monique just blatantly pointed out much she don't like this man's application". I was like, "I did not say that in those words. Okay. I said it need work." 
Monique Jenkins: But I think being in the conference space and being around those people, you get to get it on the ground floor of some people's businesses. And if they can trust you at this particular junction, they can trust you as they continue to move forward. Like they're in, I think they're raising, they're in series A of raising funds and stuff like that. So I don't know, it's a couple million dollars or whatever. Getting in on the ground floor of a company like that and being able to help them refine their application from the beginning all the way up to what I know is going to be an amazing application later. That's invaluable experience with a company that I would not have had had I not attended this conference and found myself being open and willing to, have those conversations and things like that, which I certainly wouldn't have done 10, 15 years back. 
Jessica Valis: You know, this is a great place to kind of end this conversation because next week's podcast is all about networking and the benefits. And you're gonna just wanna stick around to hear all about this, cause clearly Monique's making, you know, million-dollar connections. And it's how I found my first people and we're gonna go more into that next week. But I just wanna remind you to not be afraid to say no when something doesn't feel worthwhile, even if it feels like an integral part of your business. If you don't love it, don't do it, offload, learn, and listen to your gut and do what you love. 
Monique Jenkins: ups and downs, the feelings of being an imposter. But keep pushing forward. The lessons you learn along the way are what are going to make your entrepreneurial dreams come true. 
Jessica Valis: Beautifully said. Thank you all for joining us on the Design Imposter. Remember, it's okay to feel like an imposter as long as you keep learning and growing.

#6: Visual Design & the Starving Artist

What is visual design? And is it a practical career?
Understand the basics of visual design and discover a refreshing perspective on embracing a career path in arts and design in this episode of The Design Imposter Podcast. Hosts Jessica Valis and Monique Jenkins challenge the age-old notion of the "starving artist" by framing visual design as more than “pretty pictures” and share practical, every day applications of visual design to demonstrate the limitless potential of pursuing a creative journey. 
By sharing inspiring narratives and tangible strategies, they unveil a path where passion and practicality coexist. Whether you're a seasoned designer or a parent navigating a child's artistic aspirations, this episode offers a dynamic blend of insights and encouragement, encouraging you to embrace creativity with optimism and open doors to a thriving career in the arts.
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The podcast discusses the evolution and importance of visual design in the business landscape today. They talk about how visual design creates emotional connections, improves usability, conveys ideas, and is crucial for branding and marketing.
Key topics covered include:-
How visual design has shifted from reputation-based businesses to more engaging, personalized experiences that connect with modern audiences. Visual design shapes perception and experience.
Three core principles of visual design: color, typography, imagery/graphics. How these elements evoke emotion, guide the eye, simplify complex ideas, and resonate with audiences.
The balance between aesthetics and function. Good visual design improves usability, accessibility, satisfaction. It creates a harmonious user experience.
Strategies for developing visual identities for clients through design questionnaires, understanding target users, collaborating on inspiration boards. Balancing creativity and practicality.
Why some parents may discourage artistic passions due to 'starving artist' stereotypes. But design careers can be profitable with business knowledge. Supporting children's interests.
Personal stories and experiences with discovering artistic talents and trajectories in school subjects like writing, drawing, chemistry, debate, and more.
Want to learn more about a topic? Email us at hello@designimposterpodcast.com
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Transcription:
 
 
Monique Jenkins Welcome to another episode of the Design Imposter podcast where we delve into the fascinating world of design. Today, we're going to be shifting our focus to visual design, an essential element that encompasses everything you see and interact with in a digital space, from graphics to imagery to typography and color. Visual design shapes our perception and guides our experience. 
Monique Jenkins: Jessica, tell us, how has visual design evolved in the business landscape?
Jessica Valis: I think there was a time when businesses could run solely on reputation. For example, you use your parents' accountant because they've been using them their whole life and there's never been an issue sort of thing. But now it's more about connecting to your audience.
Jessica Valis: If someone has a website that guides me through the steps in an engaging way or an ad that doesn't look like it was designed in Microsoft Word or publisher, then I'm more likely to give it my attention and I'm not having that brand or company business loyalty. It's not that I don't not like my family accountant. It's simply that I don't feel the personalized connection. And that's what modern design is all about, connecting. That's why social media right now is just so influential. We are these visual creatures who want immediate answers. And if we can follow someone on TikTok or LinkedIn who regularly provides information that is easy for us to digest, then I'm going to go with them.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I think I've read in an article somewhere that a majority of this generation gets all of their news from like TikTok and gets a bunch of their like medical like diagnosis and stuff like that from TikTok. Like they don't go to like, I don't know, WebMD like I probably would, which I find to be super interesting that that is the catalyst for what we think is factual information because there's so much, you know, people can kind of post whatever they want to post online. So I think that's super interesting.
Monique Jenkins: But yeah, visual design is not just about creating something that's pleasing to the eye. It's about communicating messages. It guides our user interactions. It sets the tone for our brand and our product and visual design is more like visual language. And it's about conveying ideas and emotions through visuals. It connects us to the product on an emotional level to make you feel a certain type of way. So as someone is looking at visual design, what are three core principles that they should keep in mind? Kind of as they're like ingesting content that they see online or if I'm a designer, I'm a new designer and I want to understand visual design. What are three core principles that I should be looking for?
Jessica Valis: All right, the first is color. Color is very powerful. It can evoke emotions, grab attention, and even influence behavior. Think about the color red is for urgency, or blue is for trust and calmness. And I even say this with my kids all the time. "Red means stop, green means go," and then I'll say "yellow means slow." And then because my kids are just so random, when we go on walks, they'll see blue lines on the sidewalk, and they'll be like, "that's the water line," because blue represents water.
Jessica Valis: I also heard yellow is a horrible color for a nursery because it activates the anxiety center of the brain and will cause your baby to cry and freak out. So, color influences everyone across age, demographics, and industries.
Monique Jenkins: One of the things that I've heard about color is about the amount of research that companies do when they market things towards children, like how much investment they have in color theory and how colors evoke emotions, like you were saying, and how different colors kind of push children towards them. Like it's placement on shelves, so they place things for children lower so that they have the ability to see it, but also colors apparently, our colors can invoke a child, like picking up something or influencing them in some way, which I think is so cool, but also so incredibly dangerous at the same time that you can get a kid to do something that you want them to do with just a little bit of color and branding.
Jessica Valis: The second type of visual design is typography. Typography is more than just choosing fonts. It's about readability, hierarchy, and creating a rhythm in the text. It helps guide the user's eye and can set the mood of the content.
Jessica Valis: Take a look at script-y cursive fonts, for example. It's not very professional, it's not very legible, and therefore it's not appropriate or like a logo or header fonts on your website. But it is very appropriate for a wedding invitation, which is supposed to feel very elegant and personalized as if you've received a handwritten invitation from Her Majesty. You know, so again, it evokes that emotion, what that we were talking about.
Jessica Valis And of course, then there's imagery and graphics, which tell a story without words. They can simplify complex ideas, add visual interest, and create an emotional connection with the audience. But they also help your audience identify with the content immediately. If you are a retail store and all of your images are of phones, then I'll immediately know that you're a cell phone provider or you're a YouBreakIFix type store, and I'll know this without even reading the content.
Monique Jenkins: Right, I think it's about finding the right balance and ensuring that visual elements align with the content and the goals of the design. But what about the impact of visual design on overall user experience? Like I'm a UX designer, so I'm all function over aesthetics, but I think that visual design is just one side of the puzzle. So how do you kind of merge those worlds?
Jessica Valis: First of all, UX and UI are not just for website design. It can be used for documents and client -facing side of your CRM forms and emails and newsletters. So George is starting kindergarten and as part of his onboarding process for kindergarten, the parents were sent out this form for like bus approvals and you approve who gets to pick up your child from the bus stop, their name, telephone number, relationship to the child, all that stuff. When I received the form, it must have been a scan from an early 2000s form and it had the old desks specs from where it's been scanned repetitively and you had to print it out, re-upload it and it's just not ideal for a busy parent. So without even asking, I recreated the form and I made it fillable so you can make your edits on the phone or computer and then I changed the font from comic sans to monster up because the audience's parents not children. So sometimes UX is as simple as that and I always try to offer this same experience with my clients.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I think visual design directly affects how users perceive and interact with the product, and it helps to create a coherent and consistent brand image, like making products more recognizable and trustworthy. And in the circumstance that you were talking about, I think that we think about categories often when we design. This is for an elementary school, so it needs to be simplistic. But kids aren't the ones who ingest the website. Parents are. And parents, although want to see some popsicle or things like that, a set of things that technically, they're not aligned with reading and comic sales, and no one should be, guys, no one.
Monique Jenkins: It's just not about the aesthetics. Like, good visual design improves usability and accessibility. It helps with overall user satisfaction. It creates a harmonious experience that resonates with your audience. So whether you're a designer or a developer or just someone interested in the world of digital design, understanding the importance of visual design is incredibly crucial at driving what you need to drive for your business.
Jessica Valis: Absolutely. Visual design is the foundation of any digital product or brand. It's what sets the stage for everything else and creates the first impression that lasts. I have an example of visual design and it's my personal favorite.
Jessica Valis: As you know, I love LinkedIn and I love LinkedIn carousels. Essentially, they are little slideshows with maybe 10 to 20 slides designed to make digesting information easier. It's branded and follows a company's style, but it's essentially a visual step-by-step process or overview of one aspect of a specific topic. I follow a few marketing gurus out there and I don't watch their videos and I don't read their text-based posts, but I am scrolling through carousels and I'm saving them and bookmarking them to go back later because I can digest that information so much quicker and get exactly what I want through just scrolling through a couple of slides, then I am perusing paragraphs of text. I make carousels too to explain what I consider the basics of design, such as logo placement, how to use photography, layout, typography and all that.
Jessica Valis  So for my clients, I'm trying to get them away from doing their own marketing and by showing them how much thought goes into these seemingly simple concepts, I either empower them to do it the correct way or I convince them that they need somebody like me to do it for them. It benefits me and my client, but it's just another visual representation and it provides a better user experience because now they don't need to read an article or sit down and put their headphones in and watch a video or, you know, read the subtitles. They can just scroll through and see examples.
Monique Jenkins: I'm sort of like, "cool. How do you, because I know that this, when I started out as a designer, this was probably pretty difficult for me. I think you get better at this over time. But how do you create visual identities for all of your clients? It feels exhausting to have to think of new colors and typography and font. I'm typography and font is the same. But imagery and things like that in order to specify a brand for this specific company. So what are some ways you handle the stress of crafting a new visual identity for your clients?
Jessica Valis: Um, well, first I set boundaries for myself. I'm not going to allow myself to reinvent the wheel by starting from scratch for every single design element. I might be downloading assets from Envato or finding inspiration on Pinterest. It's about knowing how much time something is going to take me and to price accordingly, which we talked about in a previous episode. So if my client is paying over $10 ,000, I'll make sure to be more creative, um, because that's what they're paying for. But for smaller budgets, the opportunity cost just isn't there. So you have to know your limitations pretty early on and to stick with them. And then also by having, I have a design questionnaire that I sent out and, you know, there's different examples of typography and I'm just updating one now that has examples of color. So I can ask my clients or potential clients to click through and see which ones appeal to them. And then I'm not going through all these exercises that are very intensive to figure out, you know, what resonates with them. It's very much like a quick, click, click, click. And they know, I know, and, um, they're excited because they're getting started on this project a lot sooner. What about you? What do you, what would you say? Um,
Monique Jenkins: I have a similar questionnaire, but I always ask clients to create a Pinterest board with me with inspiration from other companies that they like or are interested in. I ask them if there are any fan favorites out there so I can get a better understanding of expectations. I think like, and I want to run through them with the client because I think they'll show me a bunch of different work, but they can't articulate why they like or do not like something to me. Even when you go through their existing website, like I go through it with them and I say, what elements about your site are absolutely non -negotiable? You don't want to change them. You love this color. You love this font. You love this whatever because this is their website and I have opinions, but like it is theirs at the end of the day. So I might give them some directional idea, but I go through their website with them and I say what elements are absolutely non -negotiable is what elements would you throw away today if you had the opportunity to. I also go through any websites that they think they'd like. So anything on Pinterest or anything else in their industry or potentially not in their industry that they resonate with. I want to understand why they are seeing those things or why they're making those determinations. Some of them might be appropriate for their brand. Some of them might not be appropriate for their brand. That helps me really to navigate what they're aesthetically what they like and content -wise what they are comfortable with as we are going through this design process. And I probably asked them maybe way too many questions about why they chose colors and things like that. Funny story though. I met two guys this weekend at the design conference that I was at or was that two weeks ago at this point. And I asked the developer, the CEO and the COO or CFO. I asked them why they chose the colors that they chose for the app. And he was like, I don't know. And I was like, what you mean you don't know? Because it's a very stark purple. And I was like, what is this purple that's to do anything? And he was like, I don't know. I just like the color purple. And I saw another app that I liked and I figured purple was an OK color. And I was like, yeah, but how does purple resonate with what you're trying to get your audience segment to do or what they're used to in other contexts about similar applications? And he was like, yeah, I don't know. And then I was like, what's these gradients happening with all these buttons? And he was like, I like gradients. And I was like, that is not a reason. That is not a reason. And the two other girls that were standing right there next to me were like, Moonee, you just like crunched that man's whole dreams. And I was like, I wasn't trying to. But I was making a point, which is like, as a CEO of a company, it isn't necessarily going to be what you specifically like as a color treatment. It's about what your audience is going to resonate with. So him telling me, I like the color purple, so we use the color purple or I like gradients. So we use gradients. It's not a sufficient answer to those questions because he's not his audience.
Jessica Valis: Yeah, one of my very first clients, I had this very simplified design questionnaire and I asked him what websites he liked and he put Apple for one of them. And as I, of course, everybody loves Apple. It's very sleek. You know, got great graphics and everything. So I build out his website and it's got a lot of white space, a lot of big graphics. And he was like, I don't like this. Why did you build it this way? And I said, well, because you said that this is how you liked it. This is how you liked it, not how your clients would like it. So he ended up paying for a redesign and we went from there. But I think, again, understanding your client is going to dictate how much time you spend on a project.
Monique Jenkins: But I think that that's typically the problem with most businesses is that they are having a designer craft something from their own perspective and not from the perspective of their client, which is why I think user experience and UI are so important is that most people, and this is of no fault to any particular person, but most people, when they think about what they want in their business, they think about it from the perspective of themselves. And although it is your business, you are not the audience. And I mean, as a designer, I think I tell myself that too. Like, I personally hate comic sales, wouldn't use it in anything. Sorry, it's never appropriate for me. But if I was working on something where it was appropriate, I'd have to get past my idea as a designer that that font is horrible and I don't love it and use the font that's most appropriate for the audience segment that I'm actually trying to design for. And I don't think that my personal opinion should come into effect when that's happening, even though I will cringe for the entirety of the rest of the project. I will do it because it's most appropriate for the audience segment that I am trying to reach. But please don't ask me to use Comic Sans, anybody.
Jessica Valis: I think, um, so since I'm not doing like a full UX UI experience with my clients and I've already talked about having this design questionnaire, as I have grown my business, I've added to the questionnaire or refined it. So now the questionnaire is a lot less about why did you form your business and it's now more about who, what clients are coming to you, what's their age, what's their demographic, what kind of house do they own, what do they do on the weekend. I want to understand your client and I'll go through this form usually like pretty in depth by client because they don't themselves necessarily understand like, well, my clients every age I said, but what age do you want them to be? What age bracket? Because this will again, it sets the tone for all the visual elements and the brand.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, I was thinking as a red flag when clients say like, my clients are everyone. I want everyone to purchase our product. I'm like, no, you don't. Cause not even Apple wants everyone to purchase their product. Like that's not their business model. If you took a look deeper inside of the motivations of why they do the things they do, I'm pretty sure they don't have anywhere on their bingo card that they want to appeal to every single person whoever wants to buy their product. They probably have a specific segment of people. And it's fine if people outside of your core demographic of clients buy or purchase your product or services, but that doesn't have to be the attention. Like you don't have to have every single person. You don't have to market your services to every single person out there to market to the demographic that you actually want to touch. And everyone else that comes is just a bonus. Cool. I'm going to pivot a little bit into something else that I think is important, which is what do you say to parents that don't think that design is a viable path for their children? Cause this is a topic that I think has been brought up to me a couple of different times and we're parents. So we understand that, you know, different folks have different expectations of their children.
Jessica Valis: I don't think I've ever run into a situation where a parent has said no to art school, but I will say as someone whose best friend did go to school for fashion design, it's important to make sure there is a practical business side of the course or program. What is the point of learning how to sketch, sew, and create if you don't know how to market yourself and don't understand the principles of business operations? And this can be for any field, really. But if you decide to study art or design, you need to understand the whole picture of the industry beyond the history that, you know, cave people drew stuff on the walls. Well, yeah, we know that. I don't need to take a history lesson about that. What I should be learning about is how do I apply graphic design and visuals to real -world application? I remember considering studying Egyptology at the University of Pennsylvania in high school. But even then, I thought, I love the study of ancient Egypt, but what will I do for actual work? How will I make money? I can't be a Tomb Raider, and I'm not going to find the next Lost Pharaoh or make a fortune reading here. I were Glyphics, and I'm not going to be featured on, you know, the National Geographic. There needs to be some kind of practicality to it. And if you can't find that angle, then I don't think it matters if you're going to school for graphic design, art, fashion, or Egyptology. It's all about what you do in the real world and how you can apply that to make money. So what would you say if Zuri wanted to enter graphic design?
Monique Jenkins: I would say go for it, but my context is a little bit different. And I know that there is value and good design. I think that most parents though have heard of the starving artist's mentality. And you would be hesitant to let your kids pursue a degree in art just because of that, you know, ideology that we have. I gave a talk at some local Baltimore school. It might even have been the Baltimore school of art about pursuing art a couple years ago. And I got an exorbitant amount of questions from parents who were not interested in their kids going to art school. And they were surprised to hear that I made over six figures and it gave them a sense of release. Because I think that the mentality was I'm always going to be taking care of this child. They're never going to be able to like step on their own and have the things that they need. And I think that's a genuine concern for some parents is that if your child is an artist, they're going to be like living on the street. They're not going to have money to feed themselves or to care of themselves or to care of any kids that they're going to have. And I think that's specifically prevalent in minority families. Like, you know, there are some families that are like, it's you going to be a doctor, you going to be a lawyer, but those are your options. Like art is never even a occurrence in some kids minds because like that is not a feasible path to elevating yourself and elevating all of the kids that have to come behind you. So I sometimes think like, you know, yes, if if I probably grew up in a different upbringing with a different race of parents that that would have been a consideration. But I will say when I went to undergrad, I was never on my bingo card. Like I was going to be in business and marketing. And that was going to be my field. And I thought about what my life looked like from that perspective. But I never thought artists is going to make me a bunch of different, you know, a bunch of money or I'm going to be like, you know, I was living in a high rise in Manhattan or something like that. I made those associations and I correlated that lifestyle to being in a more financially secure field. And art was never a part of that for me.
Jessica Valis: Now the starving artist cliche, it's like, you kid can paint pretty pictures, but can those pictures make money? And I think that's why you should go to school, is because you need to learn beyond the visual. You need to understand the science of it. So, I mean, if you do like building websites, or, you know, oh, this is really cool, I'm gonna sketch this out. Why are you sketching it out? Who does it relate to, and how can you make that profitable? Because, you know, everyone has a different idea of what pretty is, but you have to apply it to an audience.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah, and I think that we have to think about like the different types of artists out there. Like, you know, we're graphic designers, but you can be a photographer or a painter. Tattoo artists are designers, illustrator, tactile artists, cinematographers, sculptors. There are a variety of career paths that, you know, kids could potentially take. It doesn't always necessarily mean like design with a medium, because your girl can't paint. I can't paint. I can't sculpt. I can't even draw. So like, that's not my gift. And I would hire someone who has the ability to be able to do those things. And I think when we think artists, we usually think about one of those tactile mediums and not necessarily the other side of the house that, you know, is very profitable. I'm sure if you're a photographer in the NFL, you make a good amount of money. It might be repetitive, but it doesn't mean that it can't net you some type of wealth. And I do understand going to school for art, but having a practical or having a more practical side of that, like understanding business so that you can understand how to market yourself as an artist. But I think that some kids and even myself at that age, that was not my thinking. Like, I was, if I was going to be an artist, like I was going to be an artist. I never had the thought in my head that as an artist, I needed to understand how to better market myself so that I could be more effective as an artist. And I don't know that that sentiment is commonly shared by, you know, people who are just experiencing college.
Jessica Valis: And I thought kind of the opposite, or maybe it's kind of similar. Like I never thought that going to be a graphic artist, I need to know about cave paintings and the history of art and design. Like that just didn't feel relevant to me. I just wanted to know how to use the latest technology and to learn the best application and best practices. Everybody goes into it for their own reasons.
Monique Jenkins: You have never met a mom who was like, my daughter is not gonna be an artist because art sucks and she can't afford to live.
Jessica Valis: All right, so when I was in high school, all right, Egyptology, that was on my mind, but I also wanted to be an interior designer. And I mentioned this to my art teacher, and apparently I guess she was a failed interior designer, and she's like, don't do it, you won't make money from it. And so then I was like, okay, well I'll go to school for business communication.
Monique Jenkins: I'd have been like, girl, you're supposed to lift these kids up. You ain't supposed to drag them down. They're just depressing things.
Jessica Valis: But you know, I do love to renovate a house and I've even had friends in England be like, when you come over next time, will you do a room in my house? Because I just love your style. And I'm like, or like, I sold a house in Baltimore, my favorite house, my first house. And when we sold and we went to settlement, the new couple buying were like, your choice of colors. And also I left the paint hands labeled in the basement for you. Here's a map of the garden that tells you where all the plants are right now.
Monique Jenkins: That's beautiful. Like the color matching that I had to do with these walls, I hated it, I hated every second of it. Like I was like, what is this color? I was like, cause it's not white. I was like, it's kind of like a tan. I was trying to find a tan color in a paint store. Oh, worst experience of my life, sir. But yeah, like I, first of all, I would have said to you, guidance counselor, first of all, manage business, this ain't your life. But, but I'm a mean person. But I don't think that like, I think that encouragement at that age, like it is my wish for Zuri that she pursues whatever her heart truly desires, and she will find her way to profitability. Like it is my goal as a parent to set her up in a way that like she doesn't have to think about money, you know, with all I can do to set her up so that she doesn't have to think about money. And I just want her to go out there and thrive in whatever capacity that she sees fit. Cause I think like if you're, if you go to school for business and you start your own company, you have to think about like how long it took Jeff Bezos to like get to the place that he is now. Like it took a long time. So like spending, I don't know, 10 years figuring out, I'm okay with that as a parent. I'm pretty sure that like, that is not a sufficient path for like some people's children. But like, I'm gonna be like, yeah girl, go ahead, paint them pictures, baby, you got this, you can do it. And I'm gonna be on the street corners in New York with my daughter and be like, you want to buy this, it's two for five. Like I'm gonna be there with her the entire step of the way, letting her know like art is okay, or you know, she want to be something else. I'm gonna be there, you know, helping her do all the stuff. But I think, but I do think as a minority that it's very hard for parents to look at art as a viable field and encourage that for their children because they don't know or understand it. And it's not a paved out path. Like you can't say, if I'm an artist, this is how you get to be an artist and this is how you get to profitability with an artist. It is, this is, you know, this is how someone did it. This might be the way that you can make that happen, but it might be a completely different like trajectory. It might have nothing to do with like how they got to the place where they need to go as far as like profitability is concerned. So every time I see an artist on Instagram who's like, you know, I started this business in 2020 and in the first month I made negative $600 and then the second month I made $2 and then the third month I made $60. And then for the next year, I didn't make more than $100, but then, you know, two years later, I'm making $40 ,000 a month. I'm like, hey girl, share the secrets because that's the stuff I want to know so that my daughter can be an artist online too. And not that it works for every single person in the same way, but like, I think that like them having a better understanding that like there is profitability here would, you know, make people a little bit more vested. And I know like in our last episode, we talked about AI and if AI can do a lot of things, but it can't do art just quite yet. So you still need an artist's objective. So you still need people to be able to like make elaborate paintings of like butt cheeks or something. I don't know. And it was just helpful for people.
Jessica Valis: I think as parents, it's important to recognize your children's passions very early on. So my children are not literal players. As in they watch Bluey, they love Bluey, but if you get them Bluey figurines, they're not going to play with it. They would rather you get them blocks or magnets and they're going to build based on that. So, Gorge can, he's going to be an engineer. I'm just calling it right now. We'll go back to this episode in about 20 years. We'll see if I'm right. But he loves Legos and at five years old, he's building a thousand he's Titanic Legos set by himself with minimum guidance. So I started getting Kiwi box for him just to like, it's a stem box program instead of like stitch fix, you know, the kids get, I don't know, an activity. But, you know, like when he starts school, if he's struggling in English or art class, I'm not going to get on him about that because I know first of all, those aren't going to be applicable to engineering, which he's going to do. But, you know, those aren't his passions and strengths. And the more I can support him, the better he's going to be. And then when he gets to graduation, he's like, I'm going to choose a university that lets me do this. I'll be like, well, you know, the ins and outs of it. You've been doing this for a long time and I support you. So I think it's important again to just recognize the passions. And okay, very random question. I'll give this, I'll ask you a question and then I'll give my story. When you were a little girl, what was your favorite subject in school?
Monique Jenkins: Hmm. Precessed.
Jessica Valis: No, a real subject. Or like, what was a project that you vividly remember?
 
Evan Dvorkin the
Monique Jenkins: of them girl. I mean, I think maybe a debate class or something like that. Like I think I was good at this from the womb guys, but like I liked arguing and making a point with a person and having like converting someone's idea around to like what my idea was or convincing someone of something that's still true to today. My mom was very surprised I did not become a lawyer. She was like that was unique. I was like, yeah, the whole blood and guts of it. I don't think I could do. But like that was my passion. Like being able to like advocate for a specific position. I love that in school. So like debate class was probably like my thing.
Jessica Valis: Okay, but you still find that like, you're very argumentative or like, you know. Okay, so- Every single day of my life. I'll have to find a way to connect it to you. But one of my first elementary school memories is in first grade, we had to write a story and we had to design the book cover. And I vividly remember what the story was about. I remember the front cover and then there was another class. I think it was like second or third grade. There were a couple like creative writing classes or, you know, creative writing things we had to do. And I vividly remember those stories and what I talked about. And, you know, fast forward, here I am in a creative field. And so I think it was indicative of what I was gonna become. Or my brother, he loved chemistry class. That was always his passion, stalactites, stalagmites. That was always his science project. But he was very much into the sciences and he went to college for chemistry and now he's a food scientist and he uses science to build the flavors of, you know, different chips or pretzels or, you know, steak seasonings. So, could we see him as a, you know, a food scientist? Maybe not, but we always knew he was going to follow that science chemistry trajectory.
Monique Jenkins: Yeah. There is too young for me to know that about her. The only thing she likes right now is eat an off of your plate. Okay, food critic. Being crying. Food critic. Yeah, you know what? That might be very accurate to where she ends up in life because the way that girl will steal off your plate is fast and in a hurry. Thank you. Because that is her love language.
Jessica Valis: Our producer, Evan Dvorkin, has a couple things to contribute to the conversation since he is a producer, photographer, videographer. So here he is. Evan, our producer, what was your favorite subject in school?
Evan Dvorkin: I mean, I was particularly good at math, and I even went to college for coding originally. But honestly, the reason I think I've made a video on photo now is such a silly thing. My handwriting is complete trash. I had this AlphaSmart thing before kids like carry laptops around and all that. And I saw type up my notes in front of the Mac, whatever. But I would ask instead of doing written work if I could just make a video. And that's kind of what pushed into the, and then I went to college for two years, and I left and moved to Maryland, worked my brother for a little bit, and I just kept the photo, video just for fun. This is a fun thing for a while. And then it's like one of those things, like one time I got paid to do a photo shoot, and I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I guess I can get paid to do this? Not that I didn't know that there was professional photographers, it was just weird getting paid to do it after just doing it for fun for a while. And then I went to photography, then video, and so on and so forth. But yeah, my schooling was so like almost irrelevant to what this is, just because it was so math and science and whatever focused. There were some film classes, but I think everyone takes film classes. And a lot of film classes are like theory and stuff. It's not like lighting and how the camera works until you go like, yeah, I'll specialize schooling or something like that. So it was very different.
Jessica Valis: like a family class. See? Different. I had a choice between film and photography. But if you did photography, you had to use the black room. And I was not about to do that. So I did video. And I don't remember a darn thing from that class.
Monique Jenkins: I can see everything class right now like a 10 page paper. I don't think so. I can make your 30
Evan Dvorkin: teachers were they were down for they're like that's a weird request all right fine
Jessica Valis: differently. Yeah, I think that's kind of.
Evan Dvorkin: three out of ten times, see if you're like, fine, don't write the thing, just make a video. So yeah, it's like, all right.
Jessica Valis: But again, that's about like, you had teachers that were embracing your passion and embracing what you were good at. So what's, I mean, you're not going to write, you're not going to be the next author, you don't need to worry about writing these big professional emails to, you know, corporate CEOs, then sure, but, you know, go ahead and make these video recordings of your lessons. I think it's all about just embracing the passion. And it's great when you can work in a career that is your passion, that you actually enjoy it. So for a parent to go back a little bit, for a parent to say, no, you can't do art, you're going to go be a lawyer instead, you're going to hate the first semester and you're going to drop out. So
Monique Jenkins: I will say as a minority of this conversation, you won't finish these 17 years of law school like your parents told you. It is not really optional. It is not a conversation that they're having with you. It is a dictatorship in this household and you go into college. Now, 10 years later, you might not use that law degree, but you won't use it on the opposite, just FYI. But yes, let your children pursue their passion so that they become better and more whole people in the world. Well, that's a wrap on this week's episode of Design and Poster. Thank you all for joining us and we'll see you next week.

#5: AI wrote this podcast

AI is shaping the future of marketing.
 
Join us as we explore Jessica Valis' top 3 AI tools for marketing, dissecting their advantages and drawbacks. 
 
Alongside co-host Monique Jenkins, they engage in a thought-provoking discussion around the ethical considerations tied to AI use and its impact on authentic brand voices. From the practical benefits to the philosophical concerns, Jessica and Monique offer an illuminating perspective on harnessing AI for marketing. 
 
Whether you're an industry veteran or a budding entrepreneur, this episode is your gateway to understanding the intricate relationship between AI, marketing, and the art of staying true to your brand's identity.
 
Recommended AI: 
Taplio 
Quillbot
 
Want to learn more about a topic? Email us at hello@designimposterpodcast.com
designimposterpodcast.com
 
Follow Us on LinkedIn
Follow Us on Instagram
 

#4: How to Find Your First Client

Don’t know where to start when looking for your first client?
 
In this episode of The Design Imposter Podcast, hosts Jessica Valis and Monique Jenkins uncover effective methods for securing your first client. This episode is tailored for both creatives and non-creatives alike and explores methods such as attending networking events, portfolio building, social media outreach, and white-labeling strategies. They'll share personal stories of how they landed their first agency clients. Whether you're entering the creative world or expanding your business, this episode provides actionable insights to help you make that breakthrough connection.
 
Links:
 
Tips for Networking on LinkedIn
Advice & Strategy with Jessica
Advice & Strategy with Monique
 
Portfolio Building Opportunities:
https://designfest.weebly.com/
https://dailylogochallenge.com/
 
Want to learn more about a topic? Email us at hello@designimposterpodcast.com
 

#3: Pricing Strategies for Freelance Designers + Entrepreneurs

Are you undercharging for your work? Which pricing strategy is best for you?  
Join hosts Monique Jenkins and Jessica Valis as they discuss the often uncomfortable but crucial topic of pricing strategies. With real client stories as a guide, they navigate the tricky path of setting fair prices while avoiding common pitfalls like undercharging, overdelivering, and overpricing. 
 
Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business owner seeking to refine your approach, this episode offers invaluable guidance for individuals determined to foster better business practices, master the delicate dance of value negotiation, and ultimately thrive in their creative ventures.
 
Want to learn more about a topic? Email us at hello@designimposterpodcast.com
 
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